Browns Fan
Member
I agree with GySgt, they shoulda Mozambiqued this guy. He was way to big and violent, those LEOs placed themselves at great risk wrestling with this guy.
Man's Death in Fight With Cincinnati Cops Probed
- Thread starter TheeBadOne
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TheeBadOne
Member
Jessie has always piloted one of the quickest armchairs around the country.
Langenator
Member
IMHO, if a person takes a swing at a cop, especially if he connects (and this guy did), they immediately forfeit any right not to get the snot beat out of them.
From what I saw on the video (I don't know enough to judge their technique) the first two officers weren't able to subdue him until reinforcements arrived. And the first two cops on the scene apparently didn't have a taser or anything of that sort-at one point on the tape you can hear them calling for one.
The initial call was because the big guy had passed out on the lawn at some fast food joint. EMS came, with the first two cops after them. More cops were apparently summoned when the man got beligerent, but I think the first two were on their own for a bit there.
One of the talking heads on Hannity & Colmes last night was suggesting that the CPD needs more training in dealing with mentally ill/high individuals. My only question is, until he attacked the cops, how were they supposed to know that he wasn't just a hostile individual?
From what I saw on the video (I don't know enough to judge their technique) the first two officers weren't able to subdue him until reinforcements arrived. And the first two cops on the scene apparently didn't have a taser or anything of that sort-at one point on the tape you can hear them calling for one.
The initial call was because the big guy had passed out on the lawn at some fast food joint. EMS came, with the first two cops after them. More cops were apparently summoned when the man got beligerent, but I think the first two were on their own for a bit there.
One of the talking heads on Hannity & Colmes last night was suggesting that the CPD needs more training in dealing with mentally ill/high individuals. My only question is, until he attacked the cops, how were they supposed to know that he wasn't just a hostile individual?
WonderNine
member
I watched both parts of the video. I don't see anything wrong here.
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
Police spokesman was interviewed on radio this morning and took calls from listeners locally (as well as from a Denver talk radio station where they had only seen video edited out of order). He said that windshield camera turns on when overhaed (red & blue) lights are turned on. camera was on as 1st unit approached the White Castle (tiny cheap gease balls known locally as "rectum rockets"). Lights (and camera) were turned off when they arrived. As soon as they saw that he might be trouble, they went and turned the camera back on so that it would all be recorded . Also they did their best to keep the action in front of the car so that it would be recorded. When LEO's 3 and 4 arrived, they stopped using "pain conpliance techniques" and used the batons to leverage his arms one at a time in to position to cuff.
If you see the whole tape, you will see that the LEO's acted properly and his unfortuate death was natural selection.
If you see the whole tape, you will see that the LEO's acted properly and his unfortuate death was natural selection.
Sportcat
Member
Henry,
Stay safe... who knows how the locals may respond to this in your town.
Stay safe... who knows how the locals may respond to this in your town.
TheeBadOne
Member
Pretty smart cops, and level headed to think of this in the heat of the moment. Just imagine how badly they'd be flamed if the tape didn't exist! (not like they're not being fried now by "Civil Activists".)
It just goes to show how badly things have gotten PC wise when the Cops have to put safety issues 2nd, and documentation first (to cover their butt from the inevitable "rightous" crowd).
Sean Smith
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I find this whole situation bizarre.
A huge guy on PCP and cocaine goes "ape-dookie" on the police, the police subdue him with what the autopsy report clearly indicates was minimal force, he dies some time later of an apparent heart failure - overweight bastard on PCP and cocaine, go figure - and this is somehow a racial incident?
I'll tell you what it is, it is a violent and stoned moron incident. Boo hoo.
I've got alot of respect for the cops and how they handled the situation. They would have been justified in shooting him in my opinion, but didn't. That is a good thing, becuase there are instances where people can act "out of it" or even violent due to medical conditions, bad reactions to legally perscribed drugs, and so forth that aren't their fault (as opposed to being whacked out on PCP and cocaine because you are a moron). Based on the autopsy results, the guy got less of a beating than I did in an emergency room when I was having a seizure from contracting viral Encepalitis.
So to reiterate, boo hoo.
A huge guy on PCP and cocaine goes "ape-dookie" on the police, the police subdue him with what the autopsy report clearly indicates was minimal force, he dies some time later of an apparent heart failure - overweight bastard on PCP and cocaine, go figure - and this is somehow a racial incident?
I'll tell you what it is, it is a violent and stoned moron incident. Boo hoo.
I've got alot of respect for the cops and how they handled the situation. They would have been justified in shooting him in my opinion, but didn't. That is a good thing, becuase there are instances where people can act "out of it" or even violent due to medical conditions, bad reactions to legally perscribed drugs, and so forth that aren't their fault (as opposed to being whacked out on PCP and cocaine because you are a moron). Based on the autopsy results, the guy got less of a beating than I did in an emergency room when I was having a seizure from contracting viral Encepalitis.
So to reiterate, boo hoo.
gburner
member
Though it will be spun differently by those who use color as a trip wire, this is NOT a racial incident. What it is is 'suicide by cop' and a well documented
submission for the annual Darwin Awards.
Granted, our obese friend was laboring under the effects of a toxic combination of pharmaceuticals, 200 lbs. of extra weight and what appeared to be a mammoth hatred for the Cincy Police, but HE made the call on how the events went down.
In the words of the Cap'n in 'Cool Hand Luke'..."he wants it, he gets it."
Does anyone else see the irony that he was passed out at a White Castle, a burger joint notorious for selling those tiny little cholesterol bombs that people eat by the bagful and pay next to nothing for. Where are the folks that are outraged about this guys eating habits, lack of exercise and drug ingestion. Surely these factors are far more causitve in his death than the rodeo he initiated with John Law.
And for all of you armchair QB's who question the need for the application of the type of force used to subdue this guy, I've been to that dance more times than I care to remember (as the restrainer, not the restrainee ) and if you haven't done it, you just don't know. Your responsibility is to subdue the subject as quickly as possible, using only the force necessary to do so. These guys acted appropriately, given they were attacked, the subject actively fought their attempts to subdue him and eliminate his potential as a threat to himself, the police or the community.
submission for the annual Darwin Awards.
Granted, our obese friend was laboring under the effects of a toxic combination of pharmaceuticals, 200 lbs. of extra weight and what appeared to be a mammoth hatred for the Cincy Police, but HE made the call on how the events went down.
In the words of the Cap'n in 'Cool Hand Luke'..."he wants it, he gets it."
Does anyone else see the irony that he was passed out at a White Castle, a burger joint notorious for selling those tiny little cholesterol bombs that people eat by the bagful and pay next to nothing for. Where are the folks that are outraged about this guys eating habits, lack of exercise and drug ingestion. Surely these factors are far more causitve in his death than the rodeo he initiated with John Law.
And for all of you armchair QB's who question the need for the application of the type of force used to subdue this guy, I've been to that dance more times than I care to remember (as the restrainer, not the restrainee
) and if you haven't done it, you just don't know. Your responsibility is to subdue the subject as quickly as possible, using only the force necessary to do so. These guys acted appropriately, given they were attacked, the subject actively fought their attempts to subdue him and eliminate his potential as a threat to himself, the police or the community.OK. I nearly had coffee come out my nose.EMS or Fire won`t even approach the guy until he`s subdued. Of course I never policed on the planet Xenon either so what do I know?
As to the cruiser cameras-
Yeah, the officers involved were wise to turn that thing back on. If the setup is like ours, there is a radio mic on the officer's person somewhere. All you have to do is flip a switch or push a button and the camera flips on, recording both video and audio.
This is exactly why I'm a strong proponent of video/audio recordings in law enforcement. I've gone to IA a few times and provided them with my own audio tapes of an encounter (in instances where I didn't have a cruiser video). Thats a nice easy exoneration.
Also, I think that the officers are using collapsible PR-24s...that might explain some of the oddity in their technique. Its like he drew it with one handed, snapped it open with the other, and in the heat of the moment just choked up on the extended portion like a baseball bat and had at 'em. Still doesn't make it ideal, but it explains a little. The important part is the location of the strikes.
Also...rewatch the video. Do you see the part where the suspect grabbed the PR-24?
Mike
At this point, with what I have seen, it looks like the cops did OK. However, I still want some questions answered:
1. Autopsy report needs to be clear on at least 2 things -- what exactly was the cause of death? And, reports so far say that he had cocaine and PCP in his system -- But at what levels? Was he high, coming down, or did he just have some residual in his system?
2. Exactly what happened before the confrontation? All I have heard so far was that he was acting "bizarre". What does this mean? Is there tape out there that I have not seen that covers the entire incident? All I have seen so far is the tussle in from of the car, starting with the man taking a swing at an officer.
3. What exactly were the police trying to do with him? Were they just trying to help a citizen that looked in distress, were they trying to arrest him? (On what charge?).
4. What escalated the situation? Did the man just go over the top, or did some intermediate action take place that we have not yet seen?
The answers to all of these question, will in my opinion, probably support the actions of the police officers. But they still need to be answered.
1. Autopsy report needs to be clear on at least 2 things -- what exactly was the cause of death? And, reports so far say that he had cocaine and PCP in his system -- But at what levels? Was he high, coming down, or did he just have some residual in his system?
2. Exactly what happened before the confrontation? All I have heard so far was that he was acting "bizarre". What does this mean? Is there tape out there that I have not seen that covers the entire incident? All I have seen so far is the tussle in from of the car, starting with the man taking a swing at an officer.
3. What exactly were the police trying to do with him? Were they just trying to help a citizen that looked in distress, were they trying to arrest him? (On what charge?).
4. What escalated the situation? Did the man just go over the top, or did some intermediate action take place that we have not yet seen?
The answers to all of these question, will in my opinion, probably support the actions of the police officers. But they still need to be answered.
Mark Tyson
Member
Remember when cops used to carry blackjacks or slapjacks? I wonder if a blow to the back of the head with one of those would have worked on this guy.
Saw the police chief interviewed on TV this morning. He said the officers were following department submissions policy. No blows to the head. All blows directed to pain sensitive areas in back torso. However, the guy was so fat that blows might not have had the expected affect.
Also, the officers did not know if the suspect was carrying a weapon like a gun or a knife. A weapon could have quickly turned a bad scene really ugly.
In a very recent incident in Washington DC. and officer was trying to cuff a resisting armed robbery suspect when the suspect pulled a knife and attempted to carve the officer up. Luckily for the officer he was saved by his ballistic body armor. The suspect's buddy pulled a gun and shot at the officer, fortunately missing the officer. Both suspects are on the loose.
This happened in a part of D.C. that is being invaded by very violent Latino gangs like MS-13.
Also, the officers did not know if the suspect was carrying a weapon like a gun or a knife. A weapon could have quickly turned a bad scene really ugly.
In a very recent incident in Washington DC. and officer was trying to cuff a resisting armed robbery suspect when the suspect pulled a knife and attempted to carve the officer up. Luckily for the officer he was saved by his ballistic body armor. The suspect's buddy pulled a gun and shot at the officer, fortunately missing the officer. Both suspects are on the loose.
This happened in a part of D.C. that is being invaded by very violent Latino gangs like MS-13.
longeyes
member
Predict trident and net will become standard cruiser equipment.
Greg L
Member
Yes they do (at least those that I remember seeing do, it isn't something that I pay much attention to).
According to what I've heard, he was down-n-out and someone summoned an ambulance for him. The medics show up, and he starts being combative. From this could stem any of a number of charges, with Disorderly Conduct being pretty much a given.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it was the high level of cocaine and PCP in his system. Just a guess.
Seriously? he was already fighting with the medics (apparently)...theres probably not much 'de-escalation' that can occur or is appropriate at that point. However, I wasn't there.
Mike
BerettaNut92
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Man, if they riot...I really think California is slipping! It's been 11 years since our last race riot!
Destructo6
Member
What, are you going to train cops to administer meds that paramedics aren't supposed to administer? I think a Star Trek phaser on stun would be more realistic.
I thought they displayed remarkable restraint. When he went after the first cop, I was thinking "that would have been a good shoot right there." They didn't want to shoot him, and did their best.
OK, what is your source that he had a "high level" of this stuff in his system? All I have heard is that he had this in his system, not the level. You see, my problem with news reports is that so much is "implied" that might not be true. Thus we go from the statement that he had "pcp and cocaine" in his system to automatically assuming that his actions were fueled by the drugs -- but think about this -- maybe he had only residual levels of this stuff on board, and his actions were not fueled by the drugs, but simply by being an incredible idiot? (And by the way, doesn't a full tox screen take days or weeks to be done, not a few hours?)
Neither was I there, that is why I want more information -- and yes I am serious. I think that ALL of this information is important to understand what happened. I repeat, I think that probably all of this information will support the officers actions (or be irrelevant) but they are questions that need answers, not unfounded assumptions.
An example -- here is a possible "spin" that can be advanced, based on only what I know now (remember I am not advancing this argument for the truth of it, only that it can be made!):
"Here we have a classic case of police brutality. This poor victim was feeling ill and laid down on the lawn of the White Castle for a few mintues to rest. When the emergency medical team arrived, he arose and assured them that he was alright, and proceeded to leave. That is when the police arrived, and rather than allow an innocent citizen, who had committed no un-lawfull act to leave, attempted to restrain the citizen for no legitimate reason. Understandably outraged by such police state tactics, the citizen attempts to leave the area again, only to be violently struck by the police. The citizen, having a justifiable fear of the racist police in this city, felt that his life was in danger from the officers, and tried to defend himself. The police then proceeded to beat to death a man who had not committed any crime, other than self-defense."
I think that we will hear this story, or one very like it, today or in the near future. Possesion of ALL of the facts is important. I repeat again, I think that the facts WILL support that the police acted correctly in this situation -- but we will not KNOW until we find out the facts of the situation.
Egg, buddy
that is precisely the argument which will be made. It will be a lie, but it will be made.
The reports I've seen--and all any of us will ever get is reports, since we aren't witnesses--is that the White Tower clerk called 911 to report this guy lying on the front lawn shouting "nineteen' over and over. EMS arrives, and the guy gets violent.
Makes me think of Monty Python:
Officer: "This man was acting crazy, then he attacked me."
Jesse Jackson: "No, he wasn't. He was just resting. He was pining for the fjords!"
that is precisely the argument which will be made. It will be a lie, but it will be made.
The reports I've seen--and all any of us will ever get is reports, since we aren't witnesses--is that the White Tower clerk called 911 to report this guy lying on the front lawn shouting "nineteen' over and over. EMS arrives, and the guy gets violent.
Makes me think of Monty Python:
Officer: "This man was acting crazy, then he attacked me."
Jesse Jackson: "No, he wasn't. He was just resting. He was pining for the fjords!"
Daniel T
Member
From the segment of video I saw, it looked like the cops were doing everything they could to avoid using lethal force. Good job on their part. However, the probe is totally justified as well, especially as the death occured while the "suspect" was in custody. most likely, it will be shown that the "suspect" died of a combination of the effect of the drugs, enlarged heart, and massive physical exertion. It still has to be shown though.
Please, can we all just get along, and stop the White Castle burger-bashing? Much like firearms, they're only dangerous if used irresponsibly. (And, unlike any gun I've tasted, they're delicious!) Interesting being up close to this situation---heck, I live about one mile from the scene. If it turns out that Fire/EMS messed up by leaving the scene, and thus caused a delay in pt. care by having to come back, they might be in more hot water than the PD. (?) I predict, however, that there won't be Angry Activist demands to remove the Fire Chief (or City Manager) from office, as they are both African-American. Strangely, some of these folks are already demanding the ouster of the (white) Police Chief.
Interesting being up close to this situation---heck, I live about one mile from the scene. If it turns out that Fire/EMS messed up by leaving the scene, and thus caused a delay in pt. care by having to come back, they might be in more hot water than the PD. (?) I predict, however, that there won't be Angry Activist demands to remove the Fire Chief (or City Manager) from office, as they are both African-American. Strangely, some of these folks are already demanding the ouster of the (white) Police Chief.Dorrin79
Member
I concur that it looks like a clean action.
Don't want to get beat down by cops? Maybe you shouldn't get loaded on PCP and attack them...
Don't want to get beat down by cops? Maybe you shouldn't get loaded on PCP and attack them...
t-stox
Member
I just hope they used lube on the cops......................get it?
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