Man's Death in Fight With Cincinnati Cops Probed

[greyhound]

Though it will be spun differently by those who use color as a trip wire, this is NOT a racial incident.

Any time an African American male dies in any type of widely shown (i.e. videotaped and played by the media) incident involving white police (in this case 5 of 6), someone is going to play the race card. The more often we see this used as obvious farce to "get over", the less the average Joe will buy it if there actually is a racial incident.

And, by the way, how did the media get hold of a police cruiser tape anyway? Geez, and I thought the purpose of taking these videos was to protect the officer. Apparently not, people will see what they want to see....

 

[Invisible Swordsman]

Ohio has a very liberal open records law, and cruiser tapes are considered to be a public record rather than evidence. If the media ask for a copy, and they always do, the department has to make it available to them.

Of course, they are not required to broadcast everyhting, so they can edit it however they want.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Police later found about a third of a gram of powdered cocaine and two cigarettes dipped in PCP, or "angel dust," in Jones' car, the coroner's office said Tuesday. Preliminary tests showed the presence of both in Jones' system.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/02/died.in.custody/index.html

 

[Hawkeye755]

Actually I think that the local FOP representative was the one that released the video to the media in an attempt to prevent all of the speculation and race baiting that the Jesse Jackson types like to cause.

With the video out it shows pretty conclusively, in my mind anyway, that the officers acted appropriately.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Injuries on the face/head of one of the Officers involved.

 

[Coronach]

OK, what is your source that he had a "high level" of this stuff in his system? All I have heard is that he had this in his system, not the level. You see, my problem with news reports is that so much is "implied" that might not be true. Thus we go from the statement that he had "pcp and cocaine" in his system to automatically assuming that his actions were fueled by the drugs -- but think about this -- maybe he had only residual levels of this stuff on board, and his actions were not fueled by the drugs, but simply by being an incredible idiot? (And by the way, doesn't a full tox screen take days or weeks to be done, not a few hours?)

OK, fair 'nuff. But if you take my statement and snip off the 'high level' stuff, I'll still stand by it. AFAIK, the coroner did a prelim blood toxicology report, which came back positive. *shrug* Doesn't matter much, either way. We can see by the video that he's not exactly calm.

Neither was I there, that is why I want more information -- and yes I am serious. I think that ALL of this information is important to understand what happened... *snip*... Possesion of ALL of the facts is important. I repeat again, I think that the facts WILL support that the police acted correctly in this situation -- but we will not KNOW until we find out the facts of the situation.

Actually, I think we agree. And I also agree that the probe is completely proper and necessary (the FOP has an issue with one aspect of it, but that seems to be them objecting to a violation of procedure on the part of the investigators more than anything else...they're being an advocate for their clients). I mean, a guy died in custody. A full and thorough investigation is required.

Mike

 

[pittspilot]

I just wonder why anyone would think that the cops would want to get into a wrestling match with this guy?

Look. If there was a device that could put anyone to sleep safely, quickly, and humanely (Say, a Star Trek stunner) do you think the cops wouldn't want one? Do you think the cops are keeping it from us so that they can beat people?

With that line of reasoning we have to believe that cops instead would prefer to wrestle the 350lb guy on PCP and Cocaine, or hit him futilely with the pr-24 baton? Somehow, I don't think those cops walked out on their shift going "You know what I would like to do tonight...No, what?"

The standard by which we judge police action has become insane, honestly. This is my standard. Would I have been beat up? No because I would have cooperated. If you punch a cop, he will respond with force. If you grab a cops privates, he is likely to throw you to the hood, and crack you one. If you are a belligerent dope, you are likely to be treated badly. If you are law abiding and respectful, you tend to get that back.

 

[Ryder]

I just wonder why anyone would think that the cops would want to get into a wrestling match with this guy?

So does everybody else but we may never know that because that is apparently on the minute and a half of missing tape. At least we got the all time quickest autopsy results

Aside from this case, I can't help but wonder if it were me...

Unless there is a pause when a person is being beaten how can a person be expected to do anything but react instictively to the reality of those blows? I just don't understand how a verbal command could take priority over incessant blows from metal clubs. Splain it to me.

 

[GySgt]

Ryder,

Simple, follow commands and don't strike Cops and you won't get the &%#@ beat out of you!!!!

 

[gburner]

Ryder,

It's very simple. Behaviorism teaches that given a choice, humans will choose to avoid pain as a consequence to behavior. The application of pain as a consequence will change a person's behavior. The more intense the pain and the more closely it is related to the behavior that needs changing, the clearer the choice becomes...touching a hot burner for example.

The gentleman had a clear choice. Obey the verbal commands of the officers or continue to recieve blows that were painful, yet not lethal. He chose to fight the police. Police employed pain compliance. A right thinking person would stop hostility immediately. There's the rub. Ingestion of cocaine and/or PCP effects the primitive part of the brain. This area controls the primitve response mechanism and the emotions of anger, lust, hunger, etc.
PCP is a dissociative drug, which makes it impossible for the user to understand the cause and effect of behavior and consequence or much less care. Cocaine is a stimulant/anesthetic. The combination of the two drugs would have an extreme numbing effect on the user, thus dulling the his senses and his capacity to feel pain to the point that baton strikes would have little effect.
The synegistic effect of using the two drugs together has the tendency to geometrically enhance the effect of each of the drugs.

The man killed himself, surely as if he had drank a bottle of liquor and drove his car head on into a tree. No one on the news has talked about his responsibility in all of this.

 

[El Tejon]

Interesting/scummy media twist on this case. Media in Chicago and Indy market have been playing the video out of sequence. Thus, you see the coppers "beating" the man first.

 

[Greg L]

The local stations have been playing White Castle's security tapes this morning. It starts with Jones coming in the store and hugging someone (looking/acting normal (or whatever passes for that). He then goes outside and heads around the back of the store (out of camera range) for a few minutes (supposedly he rolled down a hill & wasn't moving, this is when someone from the store called 911). He comes back inside, stands in the middle of the store & does a little dance then goes back outside. The paramedics show up & go into the store to treat someone in there for hyperventelation (the person he hugged?). He came in & screamed at the paramedics & went back outside. While outside he did a little dance in the middle of the lot & then did a dance around the fire truck. Somewhere in this time frame the police roll up (resturant's camera shows emergency lights off which as mentioned shuts off the dash camera). The fire truck that was being danced around was parked off to the left of the police cars (the direction that Jones came from on the dash camera). The store's camera then shows him heading across the lot to attack the policeman.

(only saw it once so some of this may be off. However http://www.wcpo.com/ has all the video footage)

On a lighter note one of the perky morning news types was doing a story on nonletal means of restrainment (stun gun, pepper balls ("Shot through something similar to a paintball gun" it is a paintball gun you twit), tasers & best of all a "beanbag rifle" . Now a beanbag shotgun round I could understand but a rifle?

Greg

 

[Litlman]

Guys, I have a little experience with the injecting of Ativan to the mentally unstable individual and it takes about 4 to 6 people to hold an average size person down while a qualified person gets the injection ready , administers the med and gets out of the scene without sticking themselves or somebody else with the used needle. Lets not forget that the perp. was on pcp and coke. I don't think that he would have been cooperative with an injection and who was going to sit on this "large" man for the hour it took for the meds to take effect on him? That's if the standard 2mg ativan even took effect on this guy. Lets see what the official autopsy shows and lets see where the "MEDIA" takes it! Be good...

 

[TheeBadOne]

Update 12-03

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2003/local/12/02/whitecastle_late.html

Police Release Images From White Castle Security Camera In Beating Investigation

New, eye-opening information was released Tuesday night about the case of a man who died in police custody Sunday morning.
Nathaniel Jones, a Northside man died after a violent confrontation with Cincinnati police.

Police released the White Castle restaurant security tapes Tuesday night. Those tapes may answer some of the many questions surrounding the deadly incident.

The tapes show some unusual behavior by Jones and it may answer the question concerning what happened before police got involved.

People want to know what took place in that one minute and 30 seconds before the officer's cruiser camera was turned on.

At exactly 5:43 a.m. Sunday, Jones arrived at the shop and hugged a female employee he had met a few days earlier.

Jones immediately walks out of the shop and to the back parking lot for seven minutes, where the female worker told police he fell down and she became concerned when his eyes appeared to roll to the back of his head.

That's when medics were called to help but that friend of Jones' was upset and began to hyperventilate.

As medics helped her Jones came back inside White Castle, at first ignoring what was going on behind him and then he started a dance routine.

He then left the store again.

On the tapes Homicide Commander Kim Frey said there is something new, that Jones allegedly screams at the paramedics.

Jones then stood in the parking lot for a few minutes and continued to dance.

Paramedics remained inside and watched and called police, telling them that Jones was a nuisance.

Police were not called to an emergency, so they arrived with their lights off, which also meant the cruiser camera was off.

That is when the officers approached Jones, who appeared to continue dancing and then lunge at the officer which appeared to be when the outburst took place.

Did police provoke Jones? Or was Jones in a drug induced state and attacked the officers?

Many have asked what went on during a minute and 37 second time frame, from when police arrived to when the cruiser camera was turned on.

Police told 9News reporter Shawn Ley Tuesday night, since the officers were not responding to any type of an emergency, their lights and camera were turned off.

When an officer believed Jones was becoming confrontational, that's when an officer turned the camera on.

One more clue revealed Tuesday night was that whatever Jones was saying or however he was acting to those officers, one officer became so concerned that he appeared to go to his trunk for his beanbag or pepperball gun to subdue Jones before the confrontation began.

 

[Coronach]

o does everybody else but we may never know that because that is apparently on the minute and a half of missing tape. At least we got the all time quickest autopsy results

Oh, so now there's "missing tape," too? You have a source for this?

FWIW, FNC showed the entire video ("supposedly the entire video" for those of us with a paranoid streak), right up to the point where you can hear a supervisor asking if the camera recorded the incident. Immediately afterwards, the tape ends. As the police involvement in the affair is over (the medics have returned to scene and are working on the guy at this point), its completely normal that it was shut off at this point.

Funniest portion of the video:

"Where are the medics?"

"They dipped! They call for help, and when we show up, they leave!"

"This is BULLS***!!!"

Heh! I've had that conversation. And, uh, not to razz any of our Hoseheads or Nozzlenuts here, but...guys? When you call for police assistance on a psycho 350lb man, you see him attacking the police, you see the police wrestling with him and arresting him...don't wander off! We're just gonna call you back to the scene to get statements from you, anyway, even if no one is hurt (or, dying). Stick around, mmmkay?

Mike

PS Oh yes, for anyone with ears to hear, the Coroner's office has been saying that they have preliminary test results already, and that the final, full report is forthcoming.

 

[El Tejon]

Watched the videos a couple of times over lunch. I fail to see what all the bleating is about. Coppers handled this according to the letter of the manual on this one.

Unfortunate that the "civil rights" ghouls will be attempting to roll in his blood. However, the cops did nothing wrong that I saw. See what the final autopsy report shows, but with alleged drugs, his mass and pre-existing heart, I cannot see how the cops would be at fault.

 

[Sportcat]

Update!!!

Fat guy's death ruled a homicide!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/03/died.in.custody/index.html



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104721,00.html

 

[TheeBadOne]

Dr. Carl Parrott said Jones' death "must be regarded as a direct and immediate consequence, in part, of the struggle, plus his obesity, heart disease, and drug intoxication."

 

[Sportcat]

The civil rights goons are only going to read this one way! :banghead:

 

[TheeBadOne]

Hamilton County Coroner Carl Parrott said Nathaniel Jones, 41, suffered from an enlarged heart, obesity and had intoxicating levels of cocaine, PCP and methanol in his blood.

Parrott said the death will be ruled a homicide, but added that such a ruling "should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police." Homicide rulings are issued when someone dies at the hands of another person.

Jones' death certificate will list a cause of death as an irregular heart beat because of a stress reaction from the violent struggle, Parrott said.

Jones' body had bruising on the lower half, but did not show signs of blows to the head or organ damage, Parrott said.

Jones was carrying cocaine and three hand-rolled cigarettes that had been dipped in methanol, an ingredient in embalming fluid that gets people high, authorities said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104721,00.html

 

[Lord Grey Boots]

I looked at a what appeared to be a well used PR24 at a surplus store a few weeks ago.

I immediately noted a few things.

It appeared to be aluminum, and hollow, and didn't weigh very much.

I don't know if this is representative of the type, but my immediate thought was "what's this, a wiffle bat?".

"Metal Club" is not how I would describe it. It was far more scary looking than anything. I can easily see how the baton strikes in the video would be a lot less effective than than they appear.

 

[El Tejon]

Of course it's a homicide. Many different kinds of homicide; homicide is not always murder or manslaughter.

 

[Black92LX]

Being from Cinci this truely pisses me off.

I hate stupid people here is what mommy, granny, and auntie had to say about the poor poor fat drug addicted slob that was killed.

Relatives said Jones was a loving person who never hurt anyone.

"They talk about Skip like he was an animal," said his grandmother, Bessie Jones. "He wasn't. Skipper was just a good old, fat jolly fella. He wasn't violent."

"Everyone he met, that he touched, loved him," said his aunt, Diane Payton. "He was never mean."

He was never mean no way he was trying to give the officer a hug

 

[TheeBadOne]

Black92LX you forgot to add that those racial comments he was uttering at the officers was just in fun...

 

[mp5man1]

I was looking at this thread and noticed someone mentioned the spearing the officers were doing with the PR-24. It’s referred to as a jab and is part of the training, in fact with someone this large I would recommend jabbing as it would have more effect. If this were a classroom or training situation I would have told the officers to not let go of the handle and to use either a 2 handed strike or the jab. If someone gets the handle then they can gain control of your stick. I think these officers really did their best to minimize the damage or injuries inflicted on the suspect. They should be commended for that. It’s not there fault he had an enlarged heart or used angle dust (PCP) and what ever else he was on. It’s so easy for people to sit back and judge us when it’s not them out there.

In real life I always taught to do the best you can under the circumstances and not to loose because the citizens put their trust in us to defend them.