Manual index LNL AP?

[Jason977]

I've been doing a LOT of research here and all over the interwebs trying to decide which progressive to move up to from my single stage. I've read benefits of both manual and auto indexing press function.
From the design of the indexing pauls on the LNL AP, it seems they could simply be removed to run the press in manual mode. The biggest inconvenience I can see is there isn't really anything to grab onto to easily index the shellplate, like the star wheel that comes with manual progressives.

Has anyone done this, or is there really any point?

 

[unclesam099]

The question is why would you want to do this?

 

[sharptailhunter]

You can easily rotate the shellholder by hand after raising the ram a couple of inches, which disengages the indexing pawls.

But like already asked, why would you want to do it manually when the AP does it flawlessly each time?

FWIW, I jusst moved up to the progressive realm and I have loved the Hornady L n L. I recommend it.

 

[Brian10]

I sometimes load one cartridge at a time when I'm first setting things up so I can track each station. Other times when I want to do once process such as resize and decap, I remove all of the dies except the resizer and just run the shells through it. But I've never had the need to disable the indexer.

 

[Jason977]

Why? Well since I don't own a progressive machine, all I know is what I've heard from others. For example:

-I have heard some proponents of the 550B say they prefer their press because it is manual.
-I have also read some Pro2000 owners state they prefer the manual machine to the auto index version of the same press

Some "pro-manual index" reasons given are:
-When setting up dies it is easy to go back and fourth without raising the ram
-If there is a problem with a tight primer pocket, etc. it is easier to address
-If for some reason the user incompletely cycles the handle without performing any loading operations, the press would still auto index
-Some users prefer to be completely "in control"

Also, specific to the LNL AP, I believe very long rifle cartridges are a problem due to the way it indexes on the way up. Although it doesn't appear to be a problem with the 30.06, the longest cartridge I would ever load (and I will probably stick to my single stage for that anyway).

I know the 550B is manual only, and the Pro2000 can be either, but (I think) it is very difficult to switch between manual and auto. If the LNL is easy to switch (I believe the Lee is?), I think it would be another check in the "pro" column of that machine.

The last thing I want to do is start another "which is best?" thread. I just thought this may be an interesting aspect of the LNL that others may not have explored.

Edit: Thanks to sharptali's info, it looks like it's easy to manually index without modifications on the LNL, so most of the reasons I mentioned are moot.

 

[sharptailhunter]

Yeah, it's real easy to move the sequence back one or two if needed. The indexing system is slick on the LNL because is rotates half way on the upstroke and half way on the downstroke. That is for those long rifle cases, two shorter rotating movements are less likely to tip a case than one long movement.

If possible, see if you can find someone in your area with the presses that you are considering and see for yourself which one you like. I love the Lock N Load bushing concept. I would also recommend an automatic case feeder to go along with the press. The Hornady case feeder has worked great for me.

 

[GW Staar]

I know the 550B is manual only, and the Pro2000 can be either, but (I think) it is very difficult to switch between manual and auto. If the LNL is easy to switch (I believe the Lee is?), I think it would be another check in the "pro" column of that machine.

The Pro 2000 is the only one you can buy manual, then when you get tired of manually advancing the shell plate, you can buy the kit for a 100 bucks, to turn it into the auto=index version.

But really, why? I bought the manual version and the auto-index kit, both, so I could upgrade when I felt "safe" with the learning curve. Oh wow, that took 3 hours, and I had enough of the manual stuff. Of course my experience on a Rock Chucker of almost 40 years, might have had something to do with the learning curve being short. But seriously, moving it with your hand or the auto-advance does the exact same thing...and you can advance stations using either method...as slow as you want.

Don't worry yourself about the "manual" side of things. If there was a real advantage to it, Hornady, and Lee would have manual machines, wouldn't they? There are pros and cons to each of the top end progressives, and one may in fact fit you better than the others, but...the fact that it takes some effort to convert the auto-advance RCBS Pro-2000 back to manual...is NOT a valid reason to choose another machine. Once you go auto, you're not going to ever want to go back, I promise you.

 

[Canuck-IL]

The only advantage of a manual index is it makes it easier to accidentally double charge a case.
/Bryan

 

[Shoney]

Read my post
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=520154

The beauty of the LNL AP is that you can remove the dies quickly, and run it as an indexing single stage.

I have the LNL AP and a Dillon 550. The 550 is manual index, and is a pain in the carborosticus maximus once you load on auto-indexing.

 

[GW Staar]

The only advantage of a manual index is it makes it easier to accidentally double charge a case.
/Bryan

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

I had to go home and raise the shell plate of the Pro-2000 to see if I could rotate back a station. Can do...but...with five cases on the plate that's risky in my opinion, and a good way to double prime or double charge.

If I question the last press stroke, I just remove the questionable case where ever it is and resume operations. Don't see where a manual index would help there, especially since I never load to have a speed contest anyway.

 

[UltimateReloader]

If you're interested in comparing progressive presses, check out the HD videos on my site:
www.ultimatereloader.com

I've got videos of the following presses (with and without the RCBS bullet feeder attached):
- Hornady Lock-N-Load AP progressive
- Dillon XL-650
- RCBS Pro 2000
- Lee Loadmaster

I agrree with the "don't bother with manual index" folks. Auto-index is an important safety feature (as is a powder checking die system). With the two, you'll never double-charge or squib. The case retainer spring on the LNL AP makes it easy to do single rounds, work up powder charges and clear out jams (you will have jams on any press, like when a 380 auto makes its way into your case feeder full of 9mm brass).

Another nice feature of the LNL AP is being able to take out a sizing die or RCBS lockout die when you need to check what's going on, remove a smaller case, etc.

Hope that helps!

 

[mallc]

Buy the LNL and be happy.

You'll do just fine with the LNL press. It won't run any faster than you are prepared to support. Go for it!

Scott

 

[ric426]

From one progessive press rookie to another...

When I first got my LnL AP I started out (once I had everything set to my liking), by running a single round through all the stages enough times to get comfortable with the process. I then progressed (pun intended) to running groups of three until it was comfortable, then five, then as many as I wanted.

Just take it at a slow, steady pace until you work out a standard safe procedure, then don't deviate from it. I included a Powder Cop die in my purchase and added an optical sensor that gives me a one second beep with a proper charge, no beep with an undercharge and a piercing screech with an overcharge. It's in the station right before the seating die and I've got myself trained to not pick up a bullet from the tray unless I hear the beep. If I get a beep I place a bullet on the charged and expanded case and add a fresh case in the first position of the shell plate and cycle the press. Seems to work well for me, but your procedure can be totally different as long as it safely produces reliable, accurate rounds.

 

[GW Staar]

.... The case retainer spring on the LNL AP makes it easy to do single rounds, work up powder charges and clear out jams (you will have jams on any press, like when a 380 auto makes its way into your case feeder full of 9mm brass).

Could you explain how the spring makes those operations easier than on the Dillon or Pro 2000?

Another nice feature of the LNL AP is being able to take out a sizing die or RCBS lockout die when you need to check what's going on, remove a smaller case, etc.

Why can't Dillon and RCBS users "take out" those dies as well. Granted it is a few seconds faster, but it's not much of a feat to unscrew.

Hope that helps!

I went through the OP's predicament about 15 months ago. My conclusions went like this:

Dillon, Hornady, and RCBS are all good machines.

*Dillon and Hornady both have a case feeder...a big plus but an expensive option.
*RCBS has the extremely safe and equally fast APS primer system...big plus for me. RCBS can use a bullet feeder but not a case feeder. Good enough unless you want total automation.
*Hornady has LnL but no removable die plate.
*RCBS and Dillon have removable die plates, that once set, no need to LnL excepting at RCB's fixed powder measure station.
*Dillon's system requires multiple powder measures (read expensive as hell) to really make their design sing.

*Big plus of Die Plate press design allows the reloading of rifle, in two fast stages, if you buy an extra inexpensive die plate. One plate has an RCBS Lube Die, and a Dillon sizer/power case trimmer. Second stage charges, checks charge, seats, and crimps on another die plate. The process of sliding and pinning a die plate (all set up) is faster than LnL'ing separate dies. I will concede that a LnL hole at the permanent RCBS powder drop station would be worth finding a good machine shop for.

*Powder measures on the Hornady and RCBS edge out the Dillon...but you can convert the Dillon to use Uniflows so that's not a biggie. Dillon users are all rich anyway, they can afford to buy 5 uniflows to mount in their Die plate collection.

It gets down to what you want to load and whether speed at the crank, or speed at changing calibers, is most important, and how high of a priority safety is.
Dillon with a case feeder and a bullet feeder wins the speed war at the crank...if you load a couple of pistol cartridges and you are adept at keeping it synced. Hornady and RCBS excels (a close tie with different +/-'s) for easier reloading of multiple calibers. Personal opinion is that the die plate wins.

If safety with primers is a priority, RCBS's APS priming system wins that one hands down.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

The Dillon PM only works in the 2nd station on the press. So if you need more than one operation prior to charging powder (e.g. a lube die and a RCBS X sizer die, or a neck sizer die and shoulder bump die, etc.), you must use two passes through the press and two tool heads, regardless of the number of stages required. Also, the 650 dispenses a new primer for every pull of the handle, regardless of whether it is used (seated in a cartridge) or not. So, for one of those passes, you have to remove the primers from the press.

The primer issue also makes it hard to use the 650 as a turret press (one cartridge on the press at a time), since 5 primers will get dispensed for each cartridge.

When it comes to auto-indexing, those that don't have it usually think it's some kind of advantage not to have it. Those that have it know better.

Andy

 

[UltimateReloader]

I went through the OP's predicament about 15 months ago. My conclusions went like this:

Dillon, Hornady, and RCBS are all good machines.

*Dillon and Hornady both have a case feeder...a big plus but an expensive option.
*RCBS has the extremely safe and equally fast APS primer system...big plus for me. RCBS can use a bullet feeder but not a case feeder. Good enough unless you want total automation.
*Hornady has LnL but no removable die plate.
*RCBS and Dillon have removable die plates, that once set, no need to LnL excepting at RCB's fixed powder measure station.
*Dillon's system requires multiple powder measures (read expensive as hell) to really make their design sing.

*Big plus of Die Plate press design allows the reloading of rifle, in two fast stages, if you buy an extra inexpensive die plate. One plate has an RCBS Lube Die, and a Dillon sizer/power case trimmer. Second stage charges, checks charge, seats, and crimps on another die plate. The process of sliding and pinning a die plate (all set up) is faster than LnL'ing separate dies. I will concede that a LnL hole at the permanent RCBS powder drop station would be worth finding a good machine shop for.

*Powder measures on the Hornady and RCBS edge out the Dillon...but you can convert the Dillon to use Uniflows so that's not a biggie. Dillon users are all rich anyway, they can afford to buy 5 uniflows to mount in their Die plate collection.

It gets down to what you want to load and whether speed at the crank, or speed at changing calibers, is most important, and how high of a priority safety is.
Dillon with a case feeder and a bullet feeder wins the speed war at the crank...if you load a couple of pistol cartridges and you are adept at keeping it synced. Hornady and RCBS excels (a close tie with different +/-'s) for easier reloading of multiple calibers. Personal opinion is that the die plate wins.

If safety with primers is a priority, RCBS's APS priming system wins that one hands down.

Sure, I'll give you my take on it:
- The case retainer spring makes it easy to slide the case in and out. It's not bad at all on the RCBS Pro 2000, but on the Dillon, you have to remove/replace the brass locator pin.
- When you're setting up the RCBS lockout die, there are times when you have to remove/replace the die in order to have everything settle in, or when it locks up when it shouldn't (depends on how well its setup)

I also use the LNL bushings for custom setups, like the brass pre-prep in order to remove residual roll crimp from cast lead reloading and deprime before running through the case prep center as seen in this video:
http://ultimatereloader.com/?p=893

The LNL bushing system is very handy all around. Best in class for quick emptying of powder measure!

 

[UltimateReloader]

I should also mention that I really like the Dillon XL-650 and the Pro 2000 as well, but each press has its pros/cons.

 

[GW Staar]

The LNL bushing system is very handy all around. Best in class for quick emptying of powder measure!

Can't argue about "emptying of the powder measure". That is one of the pluses for sure.

I'm sure this is very temporary thing, but right now Hornady is feeling some serious heart burn over faulty LNL die holders (I believe it was a subcontractor quality control problem they had to correct). No recall that I know of, but production and shipping was stopped until they corrected the problem.

If the OP decides on a Hornady (which is still as fine a choice as RCBS and Dillon),He ought to call Hornady and see where they are, and whether the stock at where ever he buys it, is outside the problem window, and if not, whether the replacement parts are shipping yet. One wouldn't want to start out the progressive reloading experience with an aggravation like that. Go in educated and nip it in the bud.

To the OP. Whichever machine, as each has its quirks, there are improvements to make, and techniques to learn. Most can be learned here at THR, and also check AR15.com. Have fun.

 

[Jason977]

Thanks to everybody for the input. As to the original question, I think Andy summed it up best:

When it comes to auto-indexing, those that don't have it usually think it's some kind of advantage not to have it. Those that have it know better.

Gavin, I think I have watched all of your videos at least once. As an owner/operator of different machines, you've done a great job putting a ton of unbiased info out there and it's very helpful. It's impressive how well you stick to the facts (what? no Lee bashing?) .

Staar, my list looks a lot like yours. I'll add a few observations on the LnL vs Pro2000 vs 550B debate.
*Stock, all perform the same function. With modifications, the P2000 & LnL have an extra station
*I've never loaded primer tubes or APS strips, but the APS seems like a big win, especially if you can find them pre-loaded
*Die plate vs. LnL seems like a wash to me. Heck, even unscrewing a die only takes a few secons. That's why they have locking rings.
*LnL & p2000 shell plate design is superior to Dillon.
*Consensus is the Uniflow is the best powder measure, and it comes with a micrometer adjustment. LnL is a close second (or better) with the addition of either a micrometer adjustment or multiple adjusters. Sounds like the Dillon is nearly as good as the others, but still third in this comparison
*The ability to move the power measure to any station can be beneficial, and only available with the LnL (without modifications)

Finally, I like to be a little different. I've been riding 4 stroke dirt bikes since before it was cool. I've got a 2 stroke lawnmower. My Chevy truck is a GMC. I have four handguns, and none of them are Glocks. My high capacity .223 semi auto rifle is not an AR. Historically, I'm probably not going to get the press that "everyone knows" is the only one to get.

 

[GW Staar]

Finally, I like to be a little different. I've been riding 4 stroke dirt bikes since before it was cool. I've got a 2 stroke lawnmower. My Chevy truck is a GMC. I have four handguns, and none of them are Glocks. My high capacity .223 semi auto rifle is not an AR. Historically, I'm probably not going to get the press that "everyone knows" is the only one to get.

Boy did I get a chuckle from that! Brought back 40 years of memories! My first dirt bike was a BSA thumper. My Chevy truck is an Avalanche, and I bought my wife a Yukon. My handguns? A Kahr, a Kimber, a Ruger Security Six, and a Ruger Mk3 4522...no Glocks (or Smith and Wesson's). My .223 is a much maligned stainless Mini 14, bought the first year they were introduced. My AR 10 isn't. (Remington R25) I shoot trap with an $300 used Remington automatic. Lawnmower however is, and always has been a 4-stroke...and I still lost a lot of hearing. I sure as hell didn't get the press everyone thought I should. Been a renegade on this forum and others ever since...........let us know how you like your Lee.

 

[EddieNFL]

The only advantage of a manual index is it makes it easier to accidentally double charge a case.

Yep. I can't believe anyone would buy a turret or SS press.

When it comes to auto-indexing, those that don't have it usually think it's some kind of advantage not to have it. Those that have it know better.

I have two auto indexing presses. I still like my 550 for certain loads. Not everyone can be categorized.