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Many agree that amsec/strudy are equal

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by BIGGBAY90, Oct 27, 2010.

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  1. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    Frank makes a good point. Get all the prices talk to the Houston supplier, Frank & Terry at Sturdy and know what your options are.
     
  2. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Davidmoore, here's some photos of mine and other Sturdy safes and what I see as their strengths especially in this price range:

    Tight tolerances and deep recessed door:

    DSCN0531.jpg

    DSCN0542_2.jpg

    [​IMG]

    Heavy door frame supporting the door gives the door extremely strong structural rigidity. The frame is made up of L-shaped angle that's made of 3/16" structural steel it has a deep 3" webbing with wide flanges. There is a U-shaped channel that is also made of 3/16" steel which houses the active bolt linkage, bolt actuators, re-locker and hardplate, as can be seen the U-channel also fully supports the active bolts at all times which allows the door to be "abused" in ways not recommended by some other manufacturers:

    IMG_2042.jpg

    Strong shelves, in my safe they are each rated 150Lbs. In the picture shown, there are 3 flats of 12 gauge shells (30 boxes) plus 2 flats of 20 gauge shells. The shelve doesn't even show any sign of stress with all this weight on it.

    DSCN0279.jpg

    A typical interior, not a lot of fluff but very functional.

    DSC_5649.jpg

    edit: a couple more things I should have mentioned.

    Fairly heavy gauge (7ga) of high quality American structural steel which is likely A572 Grade 50 but at a minimum A36 grade.

    [​IMG]

    High performance fire barrier used in the fire lined safes:

    [​IMG]

    And a link to their website:

    http://www.sturdysafe.com/

    Give Terry a call as leadcounsel says "Terry is the Man"
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  3. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    What's that square hole over the tear? Why do the other strike marks on the lighter steel look identical to the strike marks on the heavier steel, short of the odd tear beneath the odd square hole?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Gryffydd

    Gryffydd Member

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    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
  5. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I wasn't really. Many here can attest to that.

    I finally figured if there was going to be one manufacturer that through themselves or their supporters were going to be here selling safes, I might as well offer to help at least one member who's put a lot of effort into researching his purchase.
     
  6. Lee Roder

    Lee Roder Member

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    A fire axe isn't like your normal lumberjack axe or campfire hatchet used to chop wood. It has a pick opposite its cutting edge for penetration:

    FA_PHA-1.jpg

    Using one to cut metal involves punching holes with the pick and then connecting the "dots" with the blade. The sturdy safe evidently resisted puncture by the pick
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
  7. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I understand, but look closely at the square hole, and tell me it was caused by the end of a fire axe coming through it. There doesn't appear to be enough steel "punched" around the edges. Looks more like it was cut or partially cut than it was punched with an axe.

    Aside from that, the comparison appears to be against the body of one safe, versus the door of another. The doors are almost always stronger than the body. There also don't appear to be any strikes from the pick end on the photo of the door. They all look like blade strikes to me.
     
  8. Lee Roder

    Lee Roder Member

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    As the pick slices into the plate, its 4 corners (fairly sharp) will shear the metal at all 4 locations. If the pictured side was the side struck (seems reasonable), any metal displaced by the pick would be out of sight behind the sheet leaving a fairly nice square hole. Take a nail and punch a hole in a beer can. From the outside, it looks like a clean round hole.

    Unfortunately, the scale of both pictures does not appear to be the same. But I think the comparison just shows fire axe resistence of different metal thickness, regardless of where that metal happens to be located ("strong" door or "weak" body). The point of impact of the axe with the plate will be very localized and so any damage obtainable following a strike would depend mainly on material thickness and not its supporting framework. Maybe there are some gun safes with 12ga doors.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2010
  9. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Yea but sturdy is saying it is 7/8 ga---it doesn"t matter which safe company it is---who can take a ax and chop open a 7/8 or 3/16 gauge steel-----------and a1abdj i will check for best price then let you know then compare to sturdy--thanks
     
  10. heeler

    heeler Member

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    A safe dealer here in town use to do the gun show circuits with his safes and would put on a demonstration with a fire ax.
    This is how he told me..."After a few swings on 12 gauge steel he would put a hole in it.
    10 gauge steel a gash would appear.
    3/16 Steel he would put a dent into it.
    1/4....Forget about it."

    I mentioned this in another thread sometime back that after Hurricane Ike we were doing the cleanup and there was a dumpster that an oak tree had fallen on and ruined.
    I googled the make which was Roll Off brand and the specs said that models body was made out of 12 gauge steel.
    I brought my three foot double blade wood chopping ax the next day and since I had read here numerous times that you can easily chop your way through 12 gauge steel I went to work on it.
    Well after several hard swings I made a small gash in the steel.
    But certainly not very big.
    True this was not the hardned spike of a fire ax but still I am here to say that chopping your way into your Sturdy or my BF is not going to be fun and it's not likely to yield fast results.
    Better bring power tools unless you want to wear your a$$ right out.
     
  11. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    A1adbj--i'm looking at the bf 6032----what can you find that for THAT WITH shippING to nyc---even a used one would be great---AND DID SEE THE STURDY PICTURE WHERE A PIECE OF PAPER CAN BARELY GET THROUGHT, ARE THE BF LIKE THAT ALSO BECAUSE I NEVER SEEN EITHER SAFE IN PERSON
     
  12. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    I just called three ny amsec safe dealers and they all seem to be a blaNk dud ------what gives---one don't know what he has---next one is just a busy--no answer----IS THERE A WAREHOUSE WHERE I CAN GO DIRECTLY TO--------NEED PRICE FOR THE 6032---I'V SEEN DEAN SAFE HAS IT FOR $1699.00 AND $632 FOR SHIPPING
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2010
  13. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I know that a 12 gauge safe can be ripped open with hand tools. There's a photo of mine that's gone a little "viral" that shows a 12 gauge Liberty with a hole in the side big enough to crawl through that was made by a good beating.

    The photo above just looks a little odd. Perhaps another video is in order ;)

    People tend to get all bent out of shape when you say you can pry or beat a safe open. As you have stated, just because it's possible, does not mean that it is easy. There are clearly faster ways to get into a safe than a pry bar or an axe.

    I saw a photo of a Liberty Presidential the other day that had been attacked with pry bars. I don't know how long they had been working on it, but they had it about 90% open. The only thing still barely holding the door shut were the top and bottom bolts.

    Only if the retailer has a warehouse. Wholesale distributors do not deal with the public.

    Great time to point out one of the tricks used in the retail world to make it look as if you're getting a big deal.

    Some companies show a low price so that you think they are giving you the best deal. They then charge you outrageous shipping to make up for it.
     
  14. heeler

    heeler Member

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    1abdj,was that Liberty Presidential you were talking about the same one Liberty is showing on their website??
    I ask this because looking at it I certainly thought it did look as if were just about opened up.
     
  15. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I'm not seeing any burglarized safes on their site. If you can link me to it or link the photo here I can tell you.
     
  16. Lee Roder

    Lee Roder Member

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    There was talk over on Calguns of needing such earlier this past summer (post #34ff).

    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267312

    Sturdy apparently indicated a willingness to make such a video but I don't know whether anything ever came of that. To be honest, I think it would just be a waste.
     
  17. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I agree. Until you get up to 1/2" plate you're really not getting any major tool resistance. That would put you at a C rate safe (1" door, 1/2" body) for any true brute force protection.
     
  18. heeler

    heeler Member

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    1abdj,if you look at Libertys website and click on their security feeatures you can look at their monster mech locking system and they have a picture of a guys Presidential that was worked on for what they say was 5 hours.
    I just looked at all three of the pictures a minute ago and it truely looks to me it was just about defeated.
    Still a win is a win even if it is a Liberty Safe.
     
  19. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    That is the safe, however I have a lot more photos than what Liberty has on their site. Many of the safe techs who have reviewed the photos believe that there is a "bit more to the story" than what is shown. Not everybody believes that the burglars did all of that damage. Some think that the homeowner or locksmith (who didn't know what he was doing) attempted to open the safe themselves after an attempted burglary.

    It is also my understanding that the safe in the photo was replaced with a high security AMSEC =)

    Regardless, there are many manufacturers guilty of fluffing on this type of stuff. It reminds me of a display at a local store where they have a safe that "burglars attempted to open". I'm pretty sure it was never involved in an attempted burglary.
     
  20. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    I've never been to the Liberty Safe website until now. Thanks for the laugh.
    Science!

    I also love how they promote internal hinges as a way for the door to automatically stop when you open the safe, so it doesn't swing open and bang your walls.

    Really, Liberty? So active bolts are more rigid and less prone to distortion in a fire than dead bolts that are integral to the door? I suppose things can be worse. They could have used the same marketing firm as Extreme Shock or Blackhawk.
     
  21. heeler

    heeler Member

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    CesiumSponge,not only all you just mentioned just now but on one of Liberty's YouTube vids they show a torture test of their top of the line Presidential 25 and after watching that composite door flex as well as the door steel skin quiver and quake during the prying and beating on it, it certainly makes me at least believe that the two safes mention in this thread,namely the Amsec BF and the Sturdy,that also employ way less door bolts by the way than that Liberty, will hold up much better in that sort of attack.
     
  22. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    I have no doubt these gun safes will stop your average thief or burglar and that is fine for 90% of folks, and I have no problem if they advertised it as such. But it's kind of insulting to the customer when they go through great lengths to tailor their advertising in such a manner that many folks believe they're buying a level of security much higher than the product actually offers. Maybe this isn't true in all cases, but it seems to me that if a company lets the product speak for itself and it sells, then it's pretty good based on it's merits. If a company has to create an elaborate marketing mystique to sell their product, like Bose, then it probably isn't what you think you're getting.
     
  23. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    The punching end of a fireaxe, plain as day.

    @a1abdj - I respect your opinions (many of them) but sometimes you just refuse to see the obvious. That square punch is clearly the work of the pick side of the fireaxe.
     
  24. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Which is my major problem with just about every gun safe manufacturer. Some are worse than others.

    I don't run around beating on steel with a fire axe, but I'm not certain that it's obvious. If you read the thread that was linked, there were several guys there that seem to agree with me.

    I'm positive you can bash through 12 gauge steel. I'm positive you can bash through 10 gauge steel. I'm also positive that you can bash through 3/16" steel. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just not thinking it looks right.

    Similar to the pictures you see at fast food restaurants. All sorts of fancy methods are used to make the food look as good as possible, and the real thing never looks the same.

    Let me give you another example. Look at this photo from Liberty, and tell me what's plain as day.

    lvl2-pg%2021-safeburn.jpg
     
  25. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    I haven't gotten into the actual debate between the two brands of safes being argued on several threads here.

    I do have to point out that the picture on the Sturdy Safe website with the "12&10 vs 7&8" comparison raises some questions for me which I would like answered. The inclusion of the safe hinge would suggest the possibility that the attack damage shown on the Sturdy unit were all done on the safe door itself, which they advertise as 5/16", much thicker than the 7ga body construction. It's ambiguous if the test surface is the door side or the body side as the hinges are available installed on either side of the safe, so maybe the manufacturer will come on and clear that up. All the indents made by the attacking tool are also typical of an axe head as it left long, skinny marks. There are no sharp semi-diamond or semi-circular indents that would suggest the tip of a fire axe pick was actually used in this particular image.

    I've extracted the hardened steel core of a 50BMG AP round before and managed to embed it some of it into a piece of 3/4" mild steel plate with a small one-handed sledge out of curiosity so it doesn't actually take much effort to at least damage unhardened steel with something much longer and heavier, so I really question that a grown man can take a full swing with a fire axe using the pick-end and not leave some sort of typical pick mark. Heck, if you've ever used a spring-loaded center punch typical for metal fab work, it doesn't take much to mark up unhardened steel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2010
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