Marines open up competition to non-1911

[Zip06]

I believe that Kimber has already sold the USMC about 500 modified Series 1 pistols as a temporary fix while waiting the outcome of this RFP.

I would put my dinero on Kimber unless those 500 pistols prove unserviceable.

 

[fix]

I'm beginning to understand why Pat Rogers gets so frustrated with these discussions.

:banghead:

 

[tiberius]

...stuck on the 1911 design...

Can't think of anything better to be "stuck" with.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I'm beginning to understand why Pat Rogers gets so frustrated with these discussions.

Because we think that if we get a Kimber and put a lanyard loop, Novaks and Simonich grips on it, it'll make us bad@$$?

 

[Frohickey]

Sig P220ST with the new redesigned accessory rail.

 

[bigjim]

clean97GTI said: They already have the Mk.23 Mod 0 pistol. What else could be required? Better ammo capacity that weighs about the same as a 1911. More accesories so the pistol can be tailored to suit the mission. Um, SOCOM already adopted this pistol, why do the Marines have to be different by using an inferior, outdated design?

yeah ...not to many ways to add stuff or mod a 1911. LOL!!!

 

[orangeninja]

More than likely they will get the HK if they MUST have a .45. The military has already given the much sought after thumbs up...if I were them however, I would go with the Sig 220. You can't break it, and guns don't get a whole lot simpler.

 

[Kestrel]

It won't be a Beretta anything.

It will NOT be a 9mm.

It won't be a P220. They will NOT hold up.

The MEU(SOC) Marines don't want a DA pistol.

Sig assembled the GSR to compete for the MEU(SOC) and NSW contracts. (Doesn't mean it will win, but will compete.)

It definitely won't be a Para-O. They sure won't hold up.

It won't be a Mark23.

The USP is not similar to a 1911. It does have a frame mounted safety, though.

The MEU(SOC) Marines want a 1911. They want a .45.

NSW would like a .45.

(And don't bother - it won't be a Ruger. It won't be a Smith. It won't be a Glock.)

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

I think the new pistol will be of the 1911 design, because, it will not require any more training for the armourers, since they are already working with and on the 1911 pistols as we speak.

They won't have to scrap any tooling or material already included within the logistic chain and this will keep the costs down and make the supporters of the tried and true brigade happy and give the people who have to use the equipment in the hot spots of the world (known and unknown) what they want and not have to adapt something or make due, because of specifications and requirements laid down by some rear echelon type.

The Mk.23 mod 0 pistol is huge and is an almost mission specific weapon, whereas the 1911 is the have at hand all the time and can be applied when and where needed.

Granted this is my opinion and I stand by it.

 

[Grunt]

Well, if you want an updated 1911, you get a USP-45. Similar in overall size (though slightly more chunky) and operation. Frame mounted safety on some variants lets you carry it cocked and locked and depending on the variant, you can carry it hammer down as well. Polygonal rifling is far better than standard rifling (US military hasn't shot cast bullets for about 100 years so that's a moot point) and the recoil reduction system not only helps reduce the recoil but being it's own built-in buffer, extends service life as well. VERY accurate and stone reliable as well as having an ambidextrious magazine release and with the addition of a new lever, can have ambidextrious safety levers as well. It's also a modular design that allows them to be set up for a variety of modes from SA to DAO to DA/SA selective carry to conventional DA deisgns and for both right and left handed shooters.
Yeah, Sigs are alright for some folks (except for left handed folks that have trouble working the decocking lever) and those that are used to the normal control placement of safeties and slide releases rather that being positioned backwards.
Yeah, Glocks are alright but with no manual safety, I don't see them being adopted by the US military.
I don't think the SOCOM pistol is going to be considered either due to it's massive size and weight. It was a good excersize in designing a pistol to do a job a pistol was never intended to do.
CZ-97 are a maybe since they also have a frame mounted safety but I just don't think that they are going to be given a fair shake in the US military system having been made in a former Communist country. Too many hard feelings and mistrust still remain.
1911 clones are a maybe as well. They're a proven design and armorers know how to work on them so it wouldn't surprise me if they go that route. Great guns but if John Browning was alive today, he would have made the 1911, then the P-35 then the H&K USP.

 

[liliysdad]

I am dumbfounded as to the remark that Sig 220s wont hold up. Pretty ludicrous, IMO, especially with the new steel frame guns.

The 220 is simply the most reliable, accurate, and robust service .45 ever made, and this is coming form a 1911 fan.

 

[Kestrel]

I am dumbfounded as to the remark that Sig 220s wont hold up. Pretty ludicrous, IMO, especially with the new steel frame guns.

The 220 is simply the most reliable, accurate, and robust service .45 ever made, and this is coming form a 1911 fan.

Do you know of many to go beyond 30K rounds? Have you read reports from PD armorers that have issued the P220?

It's a good gun, but it is not a high round-count gun, fit for high-speed, professional shooters. It won't hold up. Do you know how much these guys shoot?

Steve

 

[VG]

removed

 

[rauchman]

Greetings,

While I really do like the Sig P220, I have to agree with another poster here who said that the P220 will NOT hold up. It's not the frame that is the weak point in the gun. A friend of mine has one and the trigger return spring broke. After doing some investigating for him, if it turns out there is a problem with the 220, this is usually it. And apparently, it happens enough. Not a huge amount, but enough that I can't see the military going with it.

 

[greygun]

If you read the info on this official site, it will tell you how much these guys shoot, and why a 1911 will probably be selected. The armorers have been building their guns for years, often on a Springfield slide and frame. This info is interesting, but nothing new has happened since January.

http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/ctq/45 Handgun.asp

 

[PigPen]

Stuck with the 9MM for now!

I think this means that they want a higher capacity as such as given by the double stack 1911 guns like the Wilson KZ45, Kimber and Springfield and STI high caps.

Anybody who has ever examined the weight of a 1911 and eight rounds of .45 ACP Cartridges knows, It's a project of deminishing returns to lighten the pistol.

The ammo creates the weight! More ammo, will make it even more difficult to tote................so much so as to be impractical for some of our newer, more delicate shall we say, troops.

We might have two or more sidearms (to accomadate different troops with different weapons) but then you add the difficulties of not being able to share a single source, caliber, etc. in a crunch.

I'm afraid we're stuck with the 9MM for now!

PigPen

 

[Tamara]

PigPen,

...so much so as to be impractical for some of our newer, more delicate shall we say, troops.

The pistol in question is for MEU(SOC) marines, who are already using 1911's and are not exactly a refuge for "more delicate" types.

 

[PigPen]

...so much so as to be impractical for some of our newer, more delicate shall we say, troops..

K. I. S. S. A single firearm with a single ammo for use by all is simpler!

A pistol is an ancillary piece of equipment by all soldiers anyway................until you need it!

No offense toward anyone is intended.

PigPen

 

[Tamara]

PigPen,

Did you go read the rundown on the RFP? They only want 750 of the things. They don't care if these guys' ammo or mags are compatible with anybody else's.




(I wonder if the actual RFP is written like the one for the FBI SWAT gun? They didn't come out and ask for a 1911. They just asked for a .45 caliber pistol that, among other things, used an S&A magwell and a Wilson Bulletproof extractor. Kinda narrowed things down... )

 

[Sean Smith]

It seems like alot of people don't grasp what the Marine competition is for. It is a specialized sidearm for a small number of Force Recon types. Not general issue for log-toads or admin pukes or soft-handed intel scum (like I was ), but a fairly select group of trigger-pullers who shoot the living crap out of all their weapons, including sidearms.

 

[fix]

No, how much do they shoot?

20k rounds a year is a joke to them. 30k is commonplace. 40k is probably a more realistic goal.

But MEUSOC units are not in the Special Operations Command. There is some discussion as to whether any unit not jump qualified will ever be part of that command. There have been discussions about adding some of the USMC Recon units, which are jump qualified.

:banghead:

 

[axeman_g]

my .02

How about keeping with the 1911 design and modernizing ...

DW Razorback 10mm. !!!!!

Colt Delta Elite

 

[Sean Smith]

As much as I like 10mm, there is really no point to using it if you are going to only be shooting at humans with FMJ. Plus, the Marines probably have 230gr hardball by the metric ton.

 

[VG]

Greygun, nice post, details what they're looking for, and how they'll go about it in broad terms.

 

[Amish]

The USP45F will win. The 1911 platform is old school. The USP holds 50% more rounds, lighter, has light rails, and designed for punishment. The SEALs like the USP45F. The USP is used by the German KSK and Australian SAS. That's good enough for me. I sold my SA 1911 and never looked back. Glock doesn't have a chance and the 220 doesn't have any strong points to put it above a USP45.