Marlin 45-70 or Remington 7600? I made my choice..(pic heavy)
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krochus said:
That's the point of the .45-70 as a hiking gun where dangerous charging animals are a concern. You aren't going to drop a bear at 100 yards unless you're specifically hunting one. The more likely scenario is a charging bear at 25 yards or less and that's why I'd choose, heck, chose a .45-70 Guide Gun. A 405gr JSP with its huge meplat would have a good chance of delivering all of it's energy to the bear whereas any .30-06 bullet would quite possibly go right on through ... pure speculation I admit ... the passing right on through bit.
Added in edit: HA!! I was right ... the .30-06 bullet used on the bear in the post below "exited through the shoulder" i.e. it wasted energy by exiting the bear.
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1858
Thank you....
Let's say..I take just one load...Double Tap 200 gr, Nosler Accubond from a 22" barrel (Remington 700)
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_64&products_id=247
100yds - 1.5" high 2525fps / 2831ft/lbs
200yds - zeroed 2403fps / 2565ft/lbs
300yds - 8.0" low 2285fps / 2320ft/lbs
400yds - 22.7" low 2171fps / 2094ft/lbs
500yds - 44.2" low 2060fps / 1884ft/lbs
Taylor Formula is just a theory..never proven...Momentum is important as much as sectional density...you do not shoot bullets in a vacuum....the drag equation and frontal area need to be calculated
The following is a review of a user of a 220 gr. Nosler Partition used on a Grizzly bear
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Chris S. of Juneau, AK
Date posted: 8/23/2003
This bullet is truly a heavy weight performer king when it come to 30 cal. bullets. I took a nice 7 1/2 ft brown bear with this bullet in 30-06 (2550 fps) that was causing trouble around are camp near Yakutat, AK. the fall of 2001. Shot was taken at 40 yards broadside chest through the right shoulder. Dropped the bear in his tracks. The Nosler 220 Partition drove a ping pong ball size hole through the bear that exit through the shoulder. Impressive! And accurate! It is my go bullet when my shots will be less then 200 yards in the 30-06.
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Link: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=427028
However, please, peace of earth..I will get one day a 45-70...I promise!!!.....I'm actually slowly falling in love with a beautiful Trapdoor at the range where I go...
Thank you....
Let's say..I take just one load...Double Tap 200 gr, Nosler Accubond from a 22" barrel (Remington 700)
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_64&products_id=247
100yds - 1.5" high 2525fps / 2831ft/lbs
200yds - zeroed 2403fps / 2565ft/lbs
300yds - 8.0" low 2285fps / 2320ft/lbs
400yds - 22.7" low 2171fps / 2094ft/lbs
500yds - 44.2" low 2060fps / 1884ft/lbs
Taylor Formula is just a theory..never proven...Momentum is important as much as sectional density...you do not shoot bullets in a vacuum....the drag equation and frontal area need to be calculated
The following is a review of a user of a 220 gr. Nosler Partition used on a Grizzly bear
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris S. of Juneau, AK
Date posted: 8/23/2003
This bullet is truly a heavy weight performer king when it come to 30 cal. bullets. I took a nice 7 1/2 ft brown bear with this bullet in 30-06 (2550 fps) that was causing trouble around are camp near Yakutat, AK. the fall of 2001. Shot was taken at 40 yards broadside chest through the right shoulder. Dropped the bear in his tracks. The Nosler 220 Partition drove a ping pong ball size hole through the bear that exit through the shoulder. Impressive! And accurate! It is my go bullet when my shots will be less then 200 yards in the 30-06.
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Link: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=427028
However, please, peace of earth
..I will get one day a 45-70...I promise!!!.....I'm actually slowly falling in love with a beautiful Trapdoor at the range where I go...Ridgerunner665
Member
A great many elephants, rhinos, water buffalo and American buffalo would have to disagree with you on that.
1858 has it right...in a nutshell, if you are hunting maybe the 30-06 is better in some ways. But if you want to stop a charge from a 1/2 ton grizzly the 45-70 is your best bet.
Gryffydd
Member
Are we still talking about an "Alaskan Hiking Gun"?
I think it's a great round in a nice rifle, that will be very quick to shoot. Don't get me wrong on that.
SwampWolf
Member
I've got one of that vintage (my grandfather bought it new in the early fifties) and caliber too. Imo, the early 760's were better suited for use with iron sights (mine wears a Williams FoolProof receiver sight) as opposed to a scope due to the relatively low drop of the comb. Aesthetically, I think the older 760s look more like a real rifle ought to look- no monte carlos, no cheek pieces, no synthetic stocks, no polyurethane finish on the wood stocks and no (ugh!) impressed "checkering".
Ridgerunner..
Elephants have been dropped with anything...it does not prove that the Taylor KO does exist...the only things where everybody agrees are energy, sectional density and bullet construction...no ballistic manual ever talk about Taylor factor, momentum or dwell time (that is another theory)
IMHO stopping a charge is only and only matter of shot placement and bullet construction....and above all else, luck!!!
Only CNS shots are sure charge stopper....at 40 yards a well built 30-06 or 45-70 bullet will go through a grizzly bear from any angle....the only thing that matter is to have a CNS spot on the way....the power of the gun (up to a point) is secondary.
Elephants have been dropped with anything...it does not prove that the Taylor KO does exist...the only things where everybody agrees are energy, sectional density and bullet construction...no ballistic manual ever talk about Taylor factor, momentum or dwell time (that is another theory)
IMHO stopping a charge is only and only matter of shot placement and bullet construction....and above all else, luck!!!
Only CNS shots are sure charge stopper....at 40 yards a well built 30-06 or 45-70 bullet will go through a grizzly bear from any angle....the only thing that matter is to have a CNS spot on the way....the power of the gun (up to a point) is secondary.
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Ridgerunner665
Member
And we're back to the old "light and fast vs. slow and heavy".
Not everybody thinks "energy" is the best measuring stick either...
Good luck and enjoy your rifle.
Not everybody thinks "energy" is the best measuring stick either...
Good luck and enjoy your rifle.
Rob96
Member
Over on the Marlin forum there is a story of a guy that took a charging bear at 6' with his 450 Marlin (really not much different than the 45/70) loaded with 300gr Nosler Partition. Entered the chest , broke the breast bone then traveled and cut the scapula in half then traveled the entire length of the bear to the rear leg. 47" of penetration. The bear reared up and over backwards on impact. Not too shabby.
I really like these thread that compare the 45-70 with the 30-06. Keith and O'Connor never got it settled, why should we?
Just get a 405 WCF and be done with it!
Nice rifle, but I am not a huge fan of the Remington pump... or the Marlin Guide Gun.
Just get a 405 WCF and be done with it!
Nice rifle, but I am not a huge fan of the Remington pump... or the Marlin Guide Gun.
I think you are on the right track. A 7600 pump in 30-06 is an excellent choice with the right ammo. I would have preferred the 18.5" barreled carbine and the scope has to go.
A 35 Whelen or a custom rebarrel to 338-06 would be even better but there is nothing wrong with the 30-06. The Alaska Fish and Wildlife division tested many types of guns and ammo years ago including the 45-70, 12 guage slugs, 30-06, and almost everything else up to 458 mag. They determinded that the 375 and 458 mags were the best stoppers, but the 30-06 with the right ammo was good enough and since most people shot them better that is the round they recommended. There is a link that I have seen posted showing the results, but I have know idea how to access it.
The 45-70 has taken a lot of very large game, but a lot of professional hunters consider it very much over rated. The 30-06 has also taken a lot of very large game and I have never seen any proof that either is the better stopper.
A 35 Whelen or a custom rebarrel to 338-06 would be even better but there is nothing wrong with the 30-06. The Alaska Fish and Wildlife division tested many types of guns and ammo years ago including the 45-70, 12 guage slugs, 30-06, and almost everything else up to 458 mag. They determinded that the 375 and 458 mags were the best stoppers, but the 30-06 with the right ammo was good enough and since most people shot them better that is the round they recommended. There is a link that I have seen posted showing the results, but I have know idea how to access it.
The 45-70 has taken a lot of very large game, but a lot of professional hunters consider it very much over rated. The 30-06 has also taken a lot of very large game and I have never seen any proof that either is the better stopper.
guntech59
Member
While I agree with the rifle choice, I'm just saying that the cartridge may not be the best choice.
ALOT of New England hunters swear by the 760/7600, but they don't run into angry, rut crazed moose (often) or grizzlies.
Just sayin'.
ALOT of New England hunters swear by the 760/7600, but they don't run into angry, rut crazed moose (often) or grizzlies.
Just sayin'.
SKYDOG308
Member
I recently got the Remington Pump bug when my Dad's 760 he bought a month after I was born in October 1953 was handed down to me. I'm not real fond of the compensator he had put on it years before I ever knew what a rifle was, but that was his thing and I cherish it because it was his. I am left eye dominate and right handed, so I have been hooked on the pump, especially since I am an avid wing shooter with an 870. His 760 and MY 7600 are both in 30-06, then I grabbed a new 7600 - POLICE 308 with the Wilson Combat ghost ring, long sight radius and 16 inch barrel. Personally aside from shooting one of my short 870's this 308 is one of the fastest back on target rifles I have.
Now to my question: My thoughts after reading this entirely through would be that if I was going to have a monster stopper in deep woods or in let's say inside 100 yards around a trout stream "opening" why would I not use the 870 12 gauge 20 inch slug shotgun, mine holds eight rounds, has a pistol grip, and will send 2 ounce slugs into the charging "beast" with the speed of the fastest bump shooter dumping 20 rounds out of a poodle popper AR15.
The 45-70 obviously presents what appears to be much much knock down (that's what our shoulder's attest to each time we light off a 400 grain'er)
yet the 45-70 gives up a flat (should I say flatter) trajectory for a reliable "arc"...both 30-06 and 45-70 can be shot at distance as I understand some buffalo hunters used 45-70's for some considerable distances on open plains.
But I would only undertake any shot beyond 200 yards (given only the two calibers) with the 30-06
Now let's shift gears again, I also understand from reading that (second hand reports...with photographs) that gun bearers and trackers alike back up the hunter and the guide on many safari with 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotguns. The latter being a shortened Ithaca/Remington 3 round 10 gauge 3.5 inch magnum semi auto. MAYBE they are onto something here?
Now to my question: My thoughts after reading this entirely through would be that if I was going to have a monster stopper in deep woods or in let's say inside 100 yards around a trout stream "opening" why would I not use the 870 12 gauge 20 inch slug shotgun, mine holds eight rounds, has a pistol grip, and will send 2 ounce slugs into the charging "beast" with the speed of the fastest bump shooter dumping 20 rounds out of a poodle popper AR15.
The 45-70 obviously presents what appears to be much much knock down (that's what our shoulder's attest to each time we light off a 400 grain'er)
yet the 45-70 gives up a flat (should I say flatter) trajectory for a reliable "arc"...both 30-06 and 45-70 can be shot at distance as I understand some buffalo hunters used 45-70's for some considerable distances on open plains.
But I would only undertake any shot beyond 200 yards (given only the two calibers) with the 30-06
Now let's shift gears again, I also understand from reading that (second hand reports...with photographs) that gun bearers and trackers alike back up the hunter and the guide on many safari with 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotguns. The latter being a shortened Ithaca/Remington 3 round 10 gauge 3.5 inch magnum semi auto. MAYBE they are onto something here?
I understand your reasoning for your choice in the 30-06 as a defense gun against bears in Alaska. My concerns is more on your selection of SCOPES. A centerfire scope could get its reticles knocked loose by recoil, and the high power scope does not make any sense. That is why most people will choose the lever action, because of the open sights as well as the knockdown power provided. Most chance encounters that occur may not allow you to sight in with a scope especially if the bear is charging at you. Bears, like humans are lazy and will not want make their way through the woodls and shrubs and such. They too will use the trails as it is easier to navigate. I would consider buying a better quality scope in a fix power such as 2x or 3x. Your life is worth more than the $79 you are spending on a Centerfire.
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