old lady new shooter
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As an attorney, what is your opinion of Mas' recommendations?
Mas Ayoob on "saying nothing" to police after a SD incident
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old lady new shooter
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You left out "I will testify".
It was "you will have my full cooperation".
It may not be at all advisable to testify.
Kleenbore,
I'm not going into the particulars as there's still a civil case outstanding.
I notice you ignored Lt Burge which is a good strategy if you're thinking Ayoob is giving good advice rather than promoting his brand by sowing controversy.
You missed my point, there are cops that couldn't care less about innocence. To some cops all they need is a conviction. Sometimes they have motives that are not apparent to the suspects. Like maybe the person shot is the cop's friends husband. Or maybe they don't like your boss. Talking always gives them the chance to twist and lie about what you said. Not saying anything before consulting a lawyer and allowing several hours to settle down is a good tactic.
Ask General Flynn....
I'm not going into the particulars as there's still a civil case outstanding.
I notice you ignored Lt Burge which is a good strategy if you're thinking Ayoob is giving good advice rather than promoting his brand by sowing controversy.
You missed my point, there are cops that couldn't care less about innocence. To some cops all they need is a conviction. Sometimes they have motives that are not apparent to the suspects. Like maybe the person shot is the cop's friends husband. Or maybe they don't like your boss. Talking always gives them the chance to twist and lie about what you said. Not saying anything before consulting a lawyer and allowing several hours to settle down is a good tactic.
Ask General Flynn....
old lady new shooter
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I remember the "full cooperation" part now, thank you.
"I will testify" is what I remember he said to say rather than "sign a complaint" or something else I forget now which has different meanings in different jurisdictions.
"I will testify" is what I remember he said to say rather than "sign a complaint" or something else I forget now which has different meanings in different jurisdictions.
Fine Figure of a Man
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Where are the moderators?
I do not see it as at all relevant.
His "brand"? Controversy? He is echoing the recommendations of the best attorneys in the field.
True, but not relevant.
One does not speak to arriving officers about innocence--only about essential facts at the scene.
It is--except for the possibility that, due to that tactic, essential corroborative evidence is not gathered, and from the standpoint of the jury, never existed.
bdickens
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I can.
All the myriad, complicated things in this life that you have memorized and you can't remember 5 simple points?
1) He tried to kill me. (I'm the victim here.)
2) They saw it.
3) There is some evidence over there and there.
4) This guy's accomplices went that way.
5) You will have my full cooperation once I consult with my attorney.
What's so hard about that?
If you can memorize and rehearse all your Walter Mitty fantasies about what you're gonna do when 27 ninjas with Uzis jump you in a dark alley, surely you shouldn't have any trouble with that.
Anchorite
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This.
As a trial lawyer, I always ask my criminal clients what did they say to law enforcement. Inevitably they all run their mouth. In any SD scenario you will be a suspect at some point. Point is, in a courtroom I can control a hell of a lot, but statements to law enforcement are only a little less dangerous than a defendant taking the stand. If in doubt, keep your mouth shut, for whatever you say can, and will be used against you, wether you are being interviewed, detained, or under arrest.
Old Dog
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Double negatives, misguided conspiracy theories and ridiculous prejudices notwithstanding... I hear the theme music from The X-Files playing in the background...
Yet another citizen who has never had to testify to anything in a real courtroom and whose only knowledge of those that work in law enforcement comes from B-movies and bad '80s television series.
there are two very different kinds of situations to consider. Do not confuse them.
In one, the defense will claim "I didn't do it". It will be up to the state to prove otherwise. Don't help them do that.
In the other, the facts will speak for the defense, saying " I obviously did it", and the state will have no difficulty proving it.
In mounting a legal defense of self defense, the defense will assert that the act was immediately necessary and lawful. It will be up to the state to prove otherwise.
Unless there is evidence supporting justification, that will not be an insurmountable task.
If the evidence at the scene disappears, it will not exist. Try to not let that happen.
In one, the defense will claim "I didn't do it". It will be up to the state to prove otherwise. Don't help them do that.
In the other, the facts will speak for the defense, saying " I obviously did it", and the state will have no difficulty proving it.
In mounting a legal defense of self defense, the defense will assert that the act was immediately necessary and lawful. It will be up to the state to prove otherwise.
Unless there is evidence supporting justification, that will not be an insurmountable task.
If the evidence at the scene disappears, it will not exist. Try to not let that happen.
Sistema1927
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Look at the "Cognitive" column of the linked document, and you will see why it is wise to "shut up and lawyer up" after a self-defense shooting.
https://health.uconn.edu/occupation...ploads/sites/25/2015/12/critical_incident.pdf
https://health.uconn.edu/occupation...ploads/sites/25/2015/12/critical_incident.pdf
Well...that depends on when after the shooting.
You certainly will not refuse to call 911.
At the scene, you will identify your self as the caller, and hopefully, as the victim.
And since the arriving first responder came along after the fact, he will have not idea who might have witnessed the incident. That will be up to you, and it could determine your future.
First of all, I think I've seen this video before, but I didn't re-watch it for this thread. Generally, I agree with him. That said, I also recognize that most people really have very little experience in dealing with the police in their official capacities. As I said at the outset, the hard part is knowing what the right thing to say is and what the wrong thing to say is. Those of us who deal regularly with the police (LEOs, prosecutors, defense counsel, etc.) spend a lot more time reading transcripts and watching interviews than the Average Joe on the Street, and it's my opinion that we're a little better prepared than that Joe to deal with a police interview.
I do agree that, in the aftermath of a police shooting, there is some risk that an SD shooter might 'blurt' out things -- IOW, he might phrase things differently than he would if he had the chance to consult counsel before the interview. However, I also think it's very important to help the police get their investigation started off on the right foot.
Izzy77
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I am not an attorney, but I agree with this a general advice. Every situation will be somewhat different, and every person is different, but most of us are not "cool cucumbers" in a life or death situation.
Here is a text summery ( as I dont waste my limited data often) of Ayoobs position:
https://www.alloutdoor.com/2020/07/24/talk-cops-self-defense-shooting-massad-ayoob-says-yes/
"Ayoob says you only have one chance to make a good first impression, and when an investigating officer arrives at a shooting scene, being alive while someone else is dead automatically sets you up as a perpetrator and the dead guy as a victim."
OK that really depends on the Police force in question, and then on the individual officer. I know from experiance that some police are really good people, and SOME are just out to nab you, and will do ANYTHING thay can to make something "stick". Keep in mind that "something" might have no connection to your act of Self Defence.
Back to the Summery:
"On top of that, the criminal justice system views the person who makes the first complaint as the “victim complainant.” And when someone refuses to talk without an attorney, that often means he or she is guilty."
If the attacker ( or attackers friends) is still alive and or/ talking maybe they will make the first complaint. Maybe the police will view you with suspicion ( as they should even if you talk), but so what? I sincerly doubt a Judge/ Jury will be looking at you as guilty because you consulted and attorney before your statement ( assuming charges are pressed).
Now keeping it simple like " i was attacked and feared for my life" then asking for an attorney may or may not be advisable, but it wont harm your case, as far as I know.
Back to the summery:
"Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."
So Ayoob is basically saying, say "this and this and this to help your case" and then, Shut up. I am not sure many people can actually do this.
If you can be a "cool cucumber" after a Justified shooting, then more power to you, just be caureful with your words, it's YOUR LIFE you just defended; moreover its YOUR LIFE that hangs in the balance. Most people would be best served by just skipping to the last point on the summery and "Shut up".
Sistema1927
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Cognitive dissonance following a self-defense shooting might lead to a complete shut down, and you might not even remember that you should call 911, or even have no more than a fuzzy recollection of what has just transpired.
Anyone who thinks that they are going to have no problem having it all together following this type of critical incident is going to be in for a surprise. As a former Police Chaplain I saw first hand that people who had just experienced a violent and life threatening situation were many times completely disoriented and irrational.
Should that happen, it would not be good for the defender.
Very true.
I know of no one who would think that.
Clearly, there is significant disagreement on this issue both among the gun-owner community and among attorneys. To complement the OP's linked ASP Extra video of John Correia interviewing Mas Ayoob, I suggest also watching two more of the ASP Extra videos, in which John's local attorney friend and adviser Marc Victor (who appears in ASP Extra videos regularly) explains in detail why he is on the say nothing side of the discussion.
For my part, given the consistent advice from ACLDN, Ayoob, Branca on LoSD, and apparently CCWSafe (although I have not seen or read their version). I fall on the say just enough then wait for your lawyer side. Their logic on asserting victim status and pointing out evidence and witnesses seems compelling. Another point has been made earlier in this thread: there is a big difference between a criminal defense attorney and a self-defense attorney. Marc Victor appears to be a criminal defense attorney, not a self-defense attorney, based on his commentary in the two videos.
Finally, on the point made several times about not being in best self control after a self defense event, that is valid. If you go through the full set of training videos provided to ACDLN members, you will learn more about this adrenaline effect. However, by study and preparation and repetition of the lessons, I believe we can be prepared to react in accordance with the training to say only enough then stop.
Marc Victor's Response to Massad Ayoob's Five-Point Checklist (Part 1)
Marc Victor's Response to Massad Ayoob's Five-Point Checklist (Part 2)
For my part, given the consistent advice from ACLDN, Ayoob, Branca on LoSD, and apparently CCWSafe (although I have not seen or read their version). I fall on the say just enough then wait for your lawyer side. Their logic on asserting victim status and pointing out evidence and witnesses seems compelling. Another point has been made earlier in this thread: there is a big difference between a criminal defense attorney and a self-defense attorney. Marc Victor appears to be a criminal defense attorney, not a self-defense attorney, based on his commentary in the two videos.
Finally, on the point made several times about not being in best self control after a self defense event, that is valid. If you go through the full set of training videos provided to ACDLN members, you will learn more about this adrenaline effect. However, by study and preparation and repetition of the lessons, I believe we can be prepared to react in accordance with the training to say only enough then stop.
Marc Victor's Response to Massad Ayoob's Five-Point Checklist (Part 1)
Marc Victor's Response to Massad Ayoob's Five-Point Checklist (Part 2)
I'm not sure there is disagreement among the limited number of attorneys whom one would want to have advising his lead attorney in a legitimate self defense case, Frankly, there aren't very many of those.
Keep in mind that most of the suspects that defense attorneys, prosecutors, and law enforcement officers encounter after they committed violence are guilty, and they try to claim self defense only because the evidence against them is overwhelming.
Victor starts out by saying that Mas assumes that there has been a legitimate self defense incident, and that the advice would not be good if it were not.
Duh.
That's the understatement of the year. What guilty person in his right mind would say, in effect, "I did it!"?
See Post #37.
Don West, the chief trial attorney for CCWSafe, appears with Branca on the LoSD Blog in a thoughtful discussion of the subject.
I'll say this again. I do not think it prudent to appear to be trying to recite something rote.
Rather, I think it wise to know and understand:
- What the officer needs to see at the scene before it disappears, and
- what you do not want to get into at that time.
"It depends, sometimes, maybe, grey area. could be, almost always, perhaps"
In the event of a shooting and the shooter is "1st to call 911" What does the shooter report?? 911 what is your emergency?
I need to report a shooting"
"I just shot someone"
I need the Police, "Why" There has been a shooting
Then the operator starts asking questions, then what?
In the event of a shooting and the shooter is "1st to call 911" What does the shooter report?? 911 what is your emergency?
I need to report a shooting"
"I just shot someone"
I need the Police, "Why" There has been a shooting
Then the operator starts asking questions, then what?
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My inclination would be to speak to the 9-1-1 operator with this type of clear info:
Then HANG-UP. I cannot envision what else responders might need to get wheels moving.
My goodness...have firearm safely secured in a non-threatening location before everyone rolls-up.
It certainly would not hurt to call a retained attorney if you have obtained one of those services, too.
Lawful defensive shooter to 9-1-1 operator could have said:
Then HANG-UP. I cannot envision what else responders might need to get wheels moving.
My goodness...have firearm safely secured in a non-threatening location before everyone rolls-up.
It certainly would not hurt to call a retained attorney if you have obtained one of those services, too.
Izzy77
Member
In MN CCW class we were told to dial 911 Assert self defence "I was attacked and feared for my life", also be sure to ask for an ambulance for the BG (even if your sure he's D.O.A.) or any other wounded, give the address, then hang up. ( IN MN you have "duty to retreat, and it gets even more complicated).
Here is more Ayoob:
https://www.tactical-life.com/combat-handguns/after-a-shooting-what-to-reveal/
It's not 100% a repeat, but the basic points are still there ( most of which I disagree with, in GENERAL).
One paragraph stands out to me:
"Bottom Line
Cops are trained to get guilty people to say incriminating things they didn’t really want to say. The same tactics can get innocent people to say things that someone erroneously convinced of their guilt could use against them, particularly when they are interrogated in the hugely stressful immediate aftermath of having faced death and been forced to extinguish a human life. This is why virtually all of us who are involved in this sort of thing on a regular basis advise that the justified shooter should not submit to a detailed interview until they’ve had time to come down from the stress flood and acquire legal counsel."
So Ayoob feels it a good idea to give a quick synopsis of the situation, but not go into detail ( which even he writes could be wrong by no intention to lie), nor be excessivly talkative with the Police....
Seems like a pretty fine line that could be easily crossed.
I found this interesting in terms of 911, and they dont agree with Ayoob either:
https://www.uslawshield.com/how-to-call-911/
and further
https://www.uslawshield.com/talking-to-police/
"Acting in Self-Defense
If you are reporting a situation where you were involved (for example, if you were forced to protect yourself or another against a crime) do not make any statements until you are able to speak with an attorney.
Having to use your firearm in self-defense is a very traumatic experience, and it is vital that you have time to gather your thoughts and think through exactly what happened before making a statement.
To put things into perspective, when police officers are involved in a shooting, they are typically given 24 to 48-hours before they are required to provide an official statement. This is because they understand it is traumatic and if they were to give a statement immediately after the event, they may not be able to remember everything clearly.
Unfortunately, we as civilians are not always given this benefit.
When reporting an incident to police dispatchers or the police you absolutely DO NOT want to say anything along the lines of:
- “I killed him,” or
- “I kept shooting him.”
If you are in an incident where you are forced to use self-defense, tell the police you invoke your rights and you’d like to speak to your attorney before making any statements.
Additionally, we see people forget to invoke and exercise their right to remain silent because they are still worked up from the incident. It is crucial that you take a moment to cool down, not attempt to intervene in their investigation, and if questioned, tell the officer you want to speak with your attorney before making any statements."
There in is my question. On the call or after the police arrive, it seems that it has to come out that you/I shot the guy.
Police "What happened"
I was attacked and feared for my life
Police" Did you shoot him"
Then what?, I would like to speak with my attorney and not answer, yes?
This is assuming it is just you and the dead guy in the room.
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