Massad Ayoob on call the cops

[MisterMike]

First, as already noted, it would be foolhardy for anyone who's not a member of the raid team and who's not an LEO to participate.

I don't know much about his credentials, but I have one of his books and have read a number of his articles. While he may not be a lawyer, I can say--speaking as a lawyer--that his writing on legal issues is sound and well-reasoned. A dirty little secret of the legal profession is that occasionally a layperson who specializes in studying a particular area of the law ends up being a better authority in that area of the law than a lawyer.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

MisterMike: "While he may not be a lawyer, I can say--speaking as a lawyer--that his writing on legal issues is sound and well-reasoned."

I distinguish (1) legal information, which almost anyone can look up in a law library or even online; from (2) legal reasoning, usually learned only at law school but occasionally picked up by talented laypersons; and (3) legal experience, which only practicing attorneys (and perhaps their direct support staff) will ever have. Ayoob is an intelligent, informed, articulate man with a zany sense of humor (perhaps not always intentional, but it's all good). I enjoy reading his stuff, and although I do not believe I've met him personally, I'd certainly not turn down a dinner invite. But he's not an attorney, and it shows. Ayoob can describe, accurately, what might happen in a hypothetical jurisdiction based on his research. I can tell you what will happen during the investigation, prosecution and trial of most crimes in much of Maine, based on years of practical experience. Other attorneys in other jurisdictions, similarly. And that's where Ayoob falls short, and where his legal analysis can run off the rails. He can't know how the District Attorney or certain Department head Assistant District Attorneys in Cumberland or Androscoggin or Kennebec or other counties think about particular crimes, or how the Portland or Lewiston or Augusta or State or other police agencies or their particular chiefs or detectives or patrolmen investigate particular crimes. I and dozens of other experienced criminal defense attorneys do. Similarly with experienced criminal defense counsel in Philadelphia, Chicago or wherever.

"A dirty little secret of the legal profession is that occasionally a layperson who specializes in studying a particular area of the law ends up being a better authority in that area of the law than a lawyer."

Jailhouse lawyers know more about criminal procedure, probation, parole, trustyship, good time, release date computation and so forth than most criminal defense attorneys. But they couldn't begin to prepare the defense of a homicide case, or most any other criminal cases.

 

[30 cal slob]

what another fine mas-bashing thread this is turning out to be.

take LFI-1 with Mas. and the criminal attorneys who frequently lecture in that class.

if you're still not satisfied with the info you've gotten in the class, then feel free to post your thoughts.

else, **** fer cryin out loud.

 

[rscalzo]

He's a cop

Part time in two small towns.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Ayoob is also a lawyer

Don't think so.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

But they couldn't begin to prepare the defense of a homicide case, or most any other criminal cases.


the lawyers need that to be believed. heck i've seen bad criminal lawyers that did a worse job than some inmates.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

cassandrasdaddy: "the lawyers need that to be believed."

The lawyers are indifferent. The defendants who insist on running their own cases and second-guessing their attorneys eventually wind up without professional representation. We don't want those clients.

I once found it amusing to bust the balloon of a chesty jailhouse lawyer (he was at large at the time). "How do you waive an arraignment?" Silence. "Why is it desirable to waive an arraignment?" Silence. "When must the District Attorney provide discovery?" (Silence). 'Why should discovery be formally demanded in a case headed for trial, even though discovery has already been provided?" (Silence). "What remedy does the defense enjoy to non-delivery of discovery?" (Silence). "How is scheduling accomplished for jury trials?" (Silence). "How would you go about eliminating jurors you don't want?" ("You can do that?"). That was just basic criminal court procedure. Now imagine if I asked him to construct an alternative defense to manslaughter based on competing harms and to prepare jury instructions accordingly.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally Posted by stickhauler
This guy is a former DEA agent who worked Miami, and met Massad when he came to visit their unit. The unit just happened to be going on a raid that day, and invited him along. According to my instructor, he talked a good game en-route to the raid, but for some reason couldn't be pried out of the backseat of their vehicle upon arrival at the scene of the raid.

I find it difficult to believe that they would let him actually participate in the raid.

You and me both -- I never heard of a non-leo being "invited" to participate in a raid. If the story is true, the people who did the inviting are probably due for some serious disciplinary action.

 

[beatcop]

The guy puts out a good product (books, training, expert witness), what more do you want?

The fact that he would spend one minute on this board is a question in itself....

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I can tell you what will happen during the investigation, prosecution and trial of most crimes in much of Maine, based on years of practical experience. ... He can't know how the District Attorney or certain Department head Assistant District Attorneys in Cumberland or Androscoggin or Kennebec or other counties think about particular crimes, or how the Portland or Lewiston or Augusta or State or other police agencies or their particular chiefs or detectives or patrolmen investigate particular crimes....

And that is not what Mas is trying to do, not what he is purporting to do and not what he should be doing for the purposes of his classes.

Mas is attempting to help his students develop a useful, but very general, understanding of the laws associated with the use of force and, again in general terms, what to expect if they have occasion to use force in self defense. He offers general suggestions about things to do in advance that could be helpful in the event that one at some later time must use force in self defense, and he offers some general suggestions about how one could conduct himself in the event that he has used force in self defense. And I think that what he does offer in those regards is legally sound.

He must deal with these issues in general terms. How the "chief of homicide" in Whatamidoinghere County may conduct an investigation, or the attitudes of the DA of Youreuglyandyourmotherdressesyoufunny County are irrelevant. This is about planning as best one can for a possible event, the specifics of which are unknowable, at an unknown future time in an unknown place.

 

[Tirod]

As for getting invited on a raid, how many who criticized have actually trained?

I got introductory familiarization as an MP at my local unit - after banging my squad leader in the head with my muzzle brake - an OKHP member - we were pretty much "gunned down" by MILES attempting an entry.

You have to know and rehearse which stack member goes where, when, and have it down to a certainty. Failure happens, ask the SEALS who seem to lose a team member annually in live fire houses.

If anybody does know when to stay the hell out of the way, it would be Mas Ayoob. He doesn't need to get shot by a wrong step in a crowded hallway full of adrenaline stuffed jocks. Proving your stones is a great way to die.

In the day, we called it a "john wayne."

I pulled that exact stunt at Ft. Polk when I was leading the squad in response to a "sniper" in the local "village" in the box. Got gunned down by my own M249 operator when I stepped in front of him at the compound entrance . . .

The really good thing about MILES is when you are shot, you see your team members pick up the lead and finish the mission. You have plenty of time to figure out how you screwed up and "left" your family with no husband or father. The AAR's are fun, too, when all the losers start "remembering" their actions and get corrected not only by you but other eyewitnesses.

Anybody who rags on Mas Ayoob for his qualifications needs to remember they may have absolutely no creds to argue with, but that's a given on the internet.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

fiddletown: "How the "chief of homicide" in Whatamidoinghere County may conduct an investigation, or the attitudes of the DA of Youreuglyandyourmotherdressesyoufunny County are irrelevant. This is about planning as best one can for a possible event, the specifics of which are unknowable, at an unknown future time in an unknown place."

But if the student lives in Penobscot County, he'd be far better off knowing what the Bangor Chief of Police, the Penobscot County District Attorney, the presiding Justice of Penobscot County Superior Court, and a likely jury of one's peers in Penobscot County thinks, rather than a theoretical national amalgamation. The local real is relevant, the national hypothetical irrelevant. A local criminal defense attorney can provide the essential information; MA cannot. Accordingly, a local criminal defense attorney is the one to consult.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Tirod: "Anybody who rags on Mas Ayoob for his qualifications needs to remember they may have absolutely no creds to argue with, but that's a given on the internet."

Not ragging on him. As stated above, I enjoy reading his stuff. But he is not an attorney, and I am.

 

[DeathByCactus]

what gives anyone the legal right to participate in the potential death of somebody else.

Any self defense clause. Just FYI...

 

[Frank Ettin]

....The local real is relevant, the national hypothetical irrelevant. A local criminal defense attorney can provide the essential information; MA cannot. Accordingly, a local criminal defense attorney is the one to consult....

You're missing the point, but you do that a lot when it suits your purpose.

For Mas' class, a local criminal defense attorney is not relevant. There is no "local" because the students in the class come from all over. And there is no "local" because no one can know where "local" will be when something in the future happens.

Now of course to supplement what Mas teaches, it's always a good idea for anyone who owns a gun to have some sort of relationship with a local attorney. Of course, when one moves, the former attorney won't be local anymore and he'll need to find a new one. Of course the wisdom of doing all of this is just another thing that Mas covers in his class (and for that matter, I've been covering in it my classes for years as well).

I know you're an attorney. But you're an attorney who has not taken one of Mas' classes. I'm an attorney too (well retired a couple of years now). But I'm an attorney who has taken one of Mas' classes.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

what gives anyone the legal right to participate in the potential death of somebody else.

Any self defense clause. Just FYI...

No one has a right to kill. In some cases (war, execution of a duly-convicted heinous criminal), some may have a duty to kill.

And we have a right to self-defense. We may be put in a position where we must use lethal force to defend ourselves -- but we have no right to kill.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

fiddletown: "You're missing the point, but you do that a lot when it suits your purpose. For Mas' class, a local criminal defense attorney is not relevant. There is no "local" because the students in the class come from all over. And there is no "local" because no one can know where "local" will be when something in the future happens."

Which may bring into question the value of MA's classes. I don't care how some hypothetical nonexistent national criminal justice system might handle a self-defense shooting. I DO care how MY local criminal justice system will handle a self-defense shooting.

 

[Brian Dale]

Rather than attacking the idea that one can evaluate a course without knowing exactly what is in the course, I'll ask this:

Does anybody have any more thoughts about the material in the original post of this thread that they'd like to discuss?

 

[MT GUNNY]

I agree that he has some Good Knowledge on SD , But I disagree with his Views on Open Carry.

 

[SpecialKalltheway]

"Does anybody have any more thoughts about the material in the original post of this thread that they'd like to discuss?"

nah I tried talking about it earlier and no one seemed to care about what was said on the 2 links, just about the guys background. I'd call this a chameleon thread jack. It still resembles the original topic enough where people didn't realize they weren't really discussing the original post.

I liked a lot of what he said, but agree with MT Gunny with disagreeing with his views on open carry. Those that call 911 when they see someone open carrying in a place where it is legal to do so should get a warning that they are misusing 911 because they are not calling about an emergency.

 

[ar10]

He is a THR member - why not PM him and ask him to address your questions?

I would agree wholeheartedly. I also "love" the he said/she said arguments. I don't know this guy and probably never will and INAL either but I've met, used, and know a lot of lawyers, some were good and others were very bad. LEO's also come in a lot of different shades from black to white, some know what they're doing and some don't.
I have read some of Mas Ayoob materials online, some of it I agree with and some of it not so much. The point is he makes more sense than non-sense, and I can guarantee he's probably better than 90% of bozo's out there now teaching SD classes.

 

[Brian Dale]

I'd call this a chameleon thread jack. It still resembles the original topic enough where people didn't realize they weren't really discussing the original post.

There's a nugget for my "Quotes" file. Thanks, Special K.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Which may bring into question the value of MA's classes. I don't care how some hypothetical nonexistent national criminal justice system might handle a self-defense shooting....

As you, yourself noted,

...I went to college to learn about a variety of subjects from people who knew more than I did....(at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5383497&postcount=82)

That is what education is about, and each level of education lays the foundation for one to learn and understand more. You might now profess not to care about how, "...hypothetical nonexistent national criminal justice system might handle a self-defense shooting...", but the general is the foundation that permits one to effectively understand and deal with the specific. In fact no one can be taught in advance how to deal with the actual event, because it hasn't happened yet, and so the exact details are unknowable. One can only plan based on more or less generalized concepts, depending on what is known.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Brian Dale: "Does anybody have any more thoughts about the material in the original post of this thread that they'd like to discuss?"

Very fair comment. And since, as I posted above, I believe in being scrupulously fair, let me say that MA did rather well in the interview. The terminological inexactitude was a minor slip, and it was clear what he meant from the context. I pulled a somewhat similar one, once. He handled himself well, and conveyed a few important concepts, not least of which is the junk-science nature of so-called "ballistic fingerprinting." That alone made it worthwhile.

 

[Brian Dale]

Good point, Duke. Thanks for that.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

fiddletown: "but the general is the foundation that permits one to effectively understand and deal with the specific."

Herein lies the deductive fallacy underlying much of modern American legal education.

"In fact no one can be taught in advance how to deal with the actual event, because it hasn't happened yet, and so the exact details are unknowable. One can only plan based on more or less generalized concepts, depending on what is known."

Actually, when you have an off-the-record conversation with the Chief of Police, a friendly conversation over a few with a lead Detective, and you talk all the time with Patrolmen, and you fight and negotiate and bull all the time with the District Attorney and his/her Assistants, some of whom you call friends, and you've tried umpty-ump cases in various and assorted local criminal courts, you kind of get an idea as to how it's going to go.