5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ayoob tends to write from a cops perspective.
Cops as we all know are the people who go in harms way to apprehend the bad guys.

The average armed citizen doesn't and shouldn't do this.

Bingo.

Most of Ayoob's stories and analogies relate or assume that the good guy is staying in the fight.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I...acting as a private citizen in lawful self-defense...don't intend to say in the fight any longer than it takes me to get out of it.

Because staying in a gunfight is a good way to get killed. It's also a good way to earn yourself a 20-year vacation, courtesy of the state penal system.

Because the sidearm that I carry...in a worst case scenario...is there to let me shoot my way OUT of the fight...not shoot my way INTO one.

My goal is to get home alive...not to prevail in a running gunfight.

The local authorities take a dim view of such activities, and will generally consider you a willing co-combatant rather than a citizen using a firearm because he's in fear for his life.

If you demonstrate that you're a willing participant by staying in the fight any longer than you have to, it'll be difficult if not impossible to convince a jury of your peers that you were, in fact, in fear for your life.
 
The myth that the civilian has to react the same as a cop, or vice versa, is the largest myth out there. There are separate rules and the outcomes will be treated differently.
Ayoob tends to write from a cops perspective.
Agreed and I'm glad that folks recognize the distinction.
 
We agree there Sam, as I said earlier, a reasonable person would leave the scene if possible and allow the police to take over. Unfortunately there are many unreasonable people around.
That's also why I believe in carrying more vs less ammo. I would like to cover my escape with enough lead to at lest give me a few seconds to get my old butt out of there.
 
I'm sure Mr Ayoob has a number of fine points based on his particular situation.

The idea that I'm going to stand and trade shots with someone is bordering on ludicrous, I'm a mother not an infantryman. The idea that someone under fire is going to have the presence of mind to count the shots fired at him makes for exciting reading but Steven King is more believable.

I'll stick to the teachings of those I have come to trust... All three of them have the same first and foremost rule- the only successful fight is the one that was avoided. All else is a discussion of failure.
 
Just to add one thing, more so than not, all of the most of the training that casual weekend warriors take in a classroom/workshop setting, goes out the window if the guy next to them has been shot and the back of his head has been removed.
Very few people, other that seasoned veterans of either law enforcement ,military or both, is mentally capable to think past such a stressful situation, "assuming one exists", and recall what they are supposed to do.
Most folks aren't wired that way.
I am not diminishing those who are, and there are those alpha types who thrive on stressful situations and take control very naturally, but the best thing for most people who haven't faced a volatile incident, is to get out of it as fast as possible, remember everything they can and report all of it to the authorities when the opportunity presents itself. Just my 3 cents
 
as many have stated before... avoiding a "gunfight" is a much better strategy than engaging armed to the teeth in a gunfight.

and the author is clearly reaching when he is "debunking" myth by citing Wild-West era (!)shoot outs or police interactions as examples for "gunfights" the average citizen might face.

Most instructors in CHL classes are also VERY clear about that ... at least here in Texas :rolleyes:
 
1911tuner stated my thoughts quite well.

BTW - Governor Perry presented that good citizen with a nice LaRue AR15:

Fast-forward again to Brownwood, Texas, in 2012. A man went berserk and began killing his neighbors. When the first responding officer arrived, the killer pinned him down with a .30-30 rifle. Armed citizen Vic Stacy shot the gunman from some 65 yards away with a Colt Python .357 Magnum revolver, wounding him badly enough that the officer could take control and finish the fight, killing the killer. Far from becoming a defendant, the heroic citizen was presented with a fine rifle by appreciative Texas Governor Rick Perry.
 
ArmyB you beat me to it! EVERYONE BEST READ POST #51 AGAIN


No one would stick around if it hits the fan, as a common proverbial is often said, until all the smell clears.
I tell people to target shoot, whatever # of rounds they were taught i.e. 2, then add this; scan left & right for other threats and a way of escape. Of course avoidance & calling police is always a 1st avenue, but if put into a situation of imminent seriousness & you have no other choice.....

So as we train, so as we do. Well, hopefully never:)!!

EXCELLENT article. thanks to the OP!
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately, the "Scan" is now being questioned - because it takes your attention away from the perpetrators and opens a window of opportunity for them to try once again. People have a very annoying habit of not falling down dead right there. While it's been the hot ticket to scan around for another combatant, are we choosing to use an LEO tactic when we should be using the opportunity to retreat to cover?

Just don't turn your back on them.

I have no problem reading Ayoob and adopting some of the techniques he presents - but I take it with a grain of salt. Yes, his perspective is Law Enforcement based, and that is a deliberate frame of acting to dominate a lethal situation. We hire cops for the job to confront, not run away. We chose to run away when we hired them to do it - in the bigger picture.

That is how the current situation developed, when we gave the mission to act to cops rather than retain it personally as we have had to do for centuries of human contact. Nobody was going to bail us out dealing with brigands and highwaymen, and nobody can today, we just think that is how it's supposed to be. After all, we hired the cops to do it, right?

So the concept you can't stay in the gunfight is now ingrained in the publics mind, and in case law. Have we done ourselves a favor attempting to delegate it to the police? Maybe not - when circumstances do arise where their is NO retreat, does having an attitude you could do that prepare you for not being able to?

Getting out of the fight quickly is a good first option but not guaranteed whatsoever. Doing everything we can to prevent a gunfight is a good philosophy - one I continually dredge up in HD fantasy threads - but there is the possibility that all you do may fail to deter it.

Therefore denial is only going to get you in deeper trouble. Ask the guy assaulted by a gang of motorcyclists on the NY freeways one Sunday morning - with undercover LEO"s participating. If it's "improbable" that will never happen, sure, the odds clearly indicate it. Doesn't mean you won't need an answer, which such incidents provoke. Better an answer to a situation that can't ever happen than no answer, which is exactly what many bullies and intruders depend on.

While we may see an abundance of silly threads on unlikely events - it does point out that there are a lot of variations and there is no one set answer. Ever. Depending on a single course of action could set you up for failure just as much as success.

What we read about in court trials are those who tried it and it didn't work out so well. Even the prosecutor wasn't assured of it's ethics - hence he defers to a judge to take the blame for allowing it. . .

so the political fallout doesn't come on him, ie Zimmerman and Wilson. Public deemed them guilty but found innocent after all is said and done.

You have to be alive to move out of town and get on with life. Do the best you can - not everyone bases their conclusions on the right ethics and you can find a place where it's not a constant post shooting issue.

If the worst case scenario hasn't even be considered yet - and Concealed Carriers have to accept they are subject to a higher risk - then what is your escape plan for a shooting gone political?

Nobody talks about what you should do after the fact much, but Ayoob tries.
 
Unfortunately, the "Scan" is now being questioned - because it takes your attention away from the perpetrators and opens a window of opportunity for them to try once again.
I watched a video of some training site that had its students actually turn a complete circle, stopping at each quarter turn. It looked so freaking ridiculous I couldn't stop laughing.

1911's post should be stickied to the top; it's spot on. Several of us have been saying this for a long time. I don't train like I'm a cop because....wait for it.....I'm not a cop. Very different tactics and reactions.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I...acting as a private citizen in lawful self-defense...don't intend to say in the fight any longer than it takes me to get out of it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top