Maybe requiring some training is a good idea...

[Vern Humphrey]

Gbw is right about how well drivers ed has worked though. When I was in high school I had 5 friends die in car wrecks. And they were all seperate incidents. All were avoidable if properly educated.

How can we know that?

One of the problems is that much of the behavior relating to accidents is in the Affective realm (related to feelings, attitudes and values), while driver education is heavily concentrated in the Cognitive (logic) and Psycho-Motor (physical skills) realms.

So what did they do that caused the accidents? And how was that related to lack of skills and knowledge?

 

[fireside44]

Plenty of evidence. Easiest is drivers's education and licensing. It works.

Yeah, at putting a plastic card that costs $50 in your pocket.

What about the thousands of speeders and fender benders each day, accident fatalities due to driver error, jabbing on cell phones while driving, drunken and intoxicated operators, road ragers, cagers, and other malcontents littering the nations highways and byways?

Heck even those with class A licenses, the one's with the some of the most "training", are known to commit offenses now and again like speeding, spending too much time on the road, etc

All done on a routine basis and with "training". Training doesn't automatically instill common sense or a cautious and careful attitude.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yeah, at putting a plastic card that costs $50 in your pocket.

What about the thousands of speeders and fender benders each day, accident fatalities due to driver error, jabbing on cell phones while driving, drunken and intoxicated operators, road ragers, cagers, and other malcontents littering the nations highways and byways?

Heck even those with class A licenses, the one's with the some of the most "training", are known to commit offenses now and again like speeding, spending too much time on the road, etc

All done on a routine basis and with "training". Training doesn't automatically instill common sense or a cautious and careful attitude.

Absolutely true.

Once again, I ask anyone who believes we need "more training" to state and quantify the problem training is supposed to solve.

 

[henschman]

What, if anything, should or even can be done to limit the danger uneducated guns owners pose to themselves and others?

Easy...

If their actions cause harm to another person or their property, they should have to pay compensation to the victim.

 

[Sam1911]

I hope Sam forgives a final response, and now as he asks I've had my say and I'll leave it at that.

Gbw, I did not mean to say we shouldn't continue to debate this if you wish. (I didn't mean drop the conversation.)

I meant to say, the idea of some mandatory training requirement scheme is on the scrap heap of history's bad ideas -- with the Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, literacy tests, and other detritus like it -- and let's leave it on that pile, not drag it back off ourselves, dust it off, polish it up like its some kind of good thing, when even our all-but-defeated opponents have largely abandoned trying to petition for it.

With friends like US, who needs enemies?

 

[Kleanbore]

What, if anything, should or even can be done to limit the danger uneducated guns owners pose to themselves and others?

Easy...

If their actions cause harm to another person or their property, they should have to pay compensation to the victim.

They do have to. Just how does that limit danger?

 

[fallout mike]

Mr. Humphrey, all I will say is that they were all single car accidents and there was no mechanical failure that caused them. My main point is that I don't want the government mandating gun training.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Lazy, incompetent, irresponsible goof-balls (from your judgments) whose right to keep and bear a weapon is just as valid and Constitutionally protected as yours.

Freedom is mighty messy at times....

OTOH, as John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

 

[JayBird]

Is there mandatory training required before I exercise my 1st amendment right? How about my 5th amendment rights? What about the 4th amendment...or Any of them???

Until it is REQUIRED for other rights, it would be infringement to then so require it for the 2nd amendment.

 

[Sam1911]

OTOH, as John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Curious to see how that statement may be practically applied ... The Constitution may be inadequate (the worst system of government, except for all the others, is how I've heard that phrased, usually attributed to Mr. Franklin, IIRC) but it has been long considered to apply equally to the moral, immoral, religious, and atheistic alike.

 

[Frank Ettin]

OTOH, as John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Curious to see how that statement may be practically applied ... The Constitution may be inadequate (the worst system of government, except for all the others, is how I've heard that phrased, usually attributed to Mr. Franklin, IIRC) but it has been long considered to apply equally to the moral, immoral, religious, and atheistic alike.

It's true that the freedoms protected by our Constitution benefit all -- the moral and immoral alike. But I think that what John Adams was saying, and what our history reflects, is that our country has worked under the Constitution as well as it has because at least a large (and large enough) proportion of our population has been moral, responsible, honest, involved, hard working and generally embodying such virtues. Freedom works for people with sound, internal moral compasses who on their own initiative assume responsibility, attend to business and productively participate in their communities.

When enough of the public does that, the products of freedom are constructive. If too many people choose not to be responsible and productive, the products of freedom are destructive.

 

[Bill H 40]

--So long as public schools exist, it will remain my belief that basic gun safety and marksmanship should be taught alongside driver's ed.----

Absolutely!
Also, how to run a checking account and get a car loan. While we are at the basics should also include: how credit works, how mortgage is structured, and why credit cards are not your friend!
This training should apply to EVERYONE regardless of their direction after high school.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

They do have to. Just how does that limit danger?

How does "training" limit the danger? Explain exactly what dangers are being eliminated, and what the "training" will be.

 

[Panzercat]

And maybe special knife handling courses and permits so you just don't go around irresponsibly stabbing everyone in New York, too.
Nice in theory, but you can't regulate stupidity, regardless of the tool or the tool using it.

 

[Sam1911]

Moderator Comment: Ahem, gentlemen, remember that politics and social issues are not topical here at THR. Please keep the conversation focused on RKBA.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I'm jumping into this one a bit late, and a lot of thoughts have been covered, but here is my $0.02.

My first firearms experience came at the instruction of the BSA. Later on, more firearms instruction came from the USAF. My kids get pretty much the same level of training I got at their age, or a little older. Do I believe in firearms education? Absolutely. Do I feel it should be mandated and regulated by the feds? No, I do not. Aside from adding an education wing to the BATFE to regulate training of firearms, education has to fall on each of us as individuals.
Many people out there are just plain ignorant and think they know all they need because they played Call of Duty or some crap. We will never get rid of the 'Armchair Green Berets' sadly. Testing or training 'requirements' of some sort will get the ire of the RTKABA folks who feel there should be nothing that they view as an infringment of the right to own firearms. But on the other hand, testing or training requirements will increase the overall safety of the population. ND and ADs would decrease, in theory, as well as a lot of other firearms related accidents.
The onus of education falls to the individual, and if the individual refuses to learn and chooses to continue to be ignorant, there isn't a lot we can do to change that. It's been long proven that those who want to remain ignorant, will.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Plenty of evidence. Easiest is drivers's education and licensing. It works.

If that is true, please explain these numbers from 2006.
Motor vehicle fatalities: 42,708 (NHTSA)
Accidental firearms fatalities: 642 (CDC)

Even if only 10% of the motor vehicle fatalities are accidental (all are considered to be) I cannot see how the connection can be made.

 

[Dulvarian]

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

Great Thomas Jefferson quote.

 

[mljdeckard]

I didn't read the whole thread, but Wally summed it up exactly. Putting education or qualification requirements on rights makes sure the little guy loses. If there is ever a precedent where you can MAKE someone pass a test to own a gun, politicians will be writing the questions. It's just like the early 20th century, when blacks were excluded from voting with 'literacy' tests.

People make hair-tearing mistakes in voting when they don't know what they are voting for, and their ignorance is exploited by politicians.

 

[TexasBill]

I don't know. Perhaps it would be good if more gun shops carried some of the better books on the subject and had information about local resources for training for people that don't plan to get a concealed-carry permit. Perhaps the state could publish a guide, like the study guides for drivers licenses, that contained an overview of state gun laws, gun safety and some common-sense guidelines covering the legal use of lethal force.

That way, it's still voluntary and there's no record. A small tax on the sale of firearms could cover the cost of printing and distribution.

The guide might not be read by everyone but it might be read by enough people who would be otherwise clueless to make it worthwhile.

I floated this idea by earlier. Didn't see any responses to it.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Is "No Politics" confusing or something?

This thread will not survive if the party politics keep intruding. Please keep this relevant without political comments.

 

[Neverwinter]

Perhaps the state could publish a guide, like the study guides for drivers licenses, that contained an overview of state gun laws, gun safety and some common-sense guidelines covering the legal use of lethal force.

That way, it's still voluntary and there's no record. A small tax on the sale of firearms could cover the cost of printing and distribution.

It's a good goal to educate the law abiding gun owners in how to avoid running afoul of the laws. At least the taxes on this would be going toward resources to help the people being taxed. It would also be useful for people traveling.

 

[killchain]

So long as public schools exist, it will remain my belief that basic gun safety and marksmanship should be taught alongside driver's ed.

Sent from my Android smart phone using Tapatalk.

I owe you a yeast-borne fermented drink!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
Perhaps the state could publish a guide, like the study guides for drivers licenses, that contained an overview of state gun laws, gun safety and some common-sense guidelines covering the legal use of lethal force.

That way, it's still voluntary and there's no record. A small tax on the sale of firearms could cover the cost of printing and distribution.

It's a good goal to educate the law abiding gun owners in how to avoid running afoul of the laws. At least the taxes on this would be going toward resources to help the people being taxed. It would also be useful for people traveling.

There are already such guides -- published by the NRA and similar organizations. No need for the state to do anything, and no need to tax us for doing it.