Mexican Matching the 7.62x54R Russian M44 & other questions.

[Kuyong_Chuin]

First off I have yet to handloading anything before even though we have had a press for 25+ years. Just trying to figure out some things before spending the money on the stuff I need to do what I want to do. I am thinking of buying a case of Russian 147 grain steel core ammo pulling the bullets and replacing them with some PPU 150 grain SPBT bullets if I can find some one that has them in stock. I want to use the original powder but make sure I have the same amount of powder in each case. Has anyone here ever pulled or bought any PPU 150 grain 7.62x54R shells and compared the bullets with the Russian light ball surplus shells sizes? Also with the PPU being a slightly larger weight bullet would this effect the powder charge? Last but not least since we already have a press what all would I need to do this Mexican Matching besides the dies, a scale, calipers, collet puller, and lube? Thanks in advance for any advice you might have.

 

[Centurian22]

First: Different bullets have different profiles so the powder charge MAY or MAY NOT carry over. Second: Have you slugged your barrel to find out what diameter you will need? (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm) Sounds like you have a good equipment list as long as you have a good reloading manual or three to reference. I have not done this yet either for my 91/30 but plan to soon so I will follow this thread as others chime in, this is just what I've found so far in my research.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

First: Different bullets have different profiles so the powder charge MAY or MAY NOT carry over. Second: Have you slugged your barrel to find out what diameter you will need? (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm) Sounds like you have a good equipment list as long as you have a good reloading manual or three to reference. I have not done this yet either for my 91/30 but plan to soon so I will follow this thread as others chime in, this is just what I've found so far in my research.

No have not slugged the barrel yet. I have to get a set of calipers first was tied up at the doctor office today so I didn't get a chance to pick up a pair. Plus I have to put it back together before doing to much. Doing some work to it. Can't wait to finally be able to shoot it.

So far the PPU 150 SPBT is the only 150 SPBT bullet in .311 diameter I have found the rest where flat bottom bullets. So both bullets are at least close to the same weight and boat tails just not sure about the lengths with one being FMJ and the other a soft point.

 

[FROGO207]

Being able to reload will give you options well beyond the average factory round in many ways. Try seating the bullets the same external length first and then try some a few thousands in or out to see what the rifle likes best. That will not change the pressure much as long as the bullet weight/diameter is the same. The bullets do not need to be a boat tail design or the same diameter as the original either but your propellant amounts will not necessarily be the same then. You want to measure the propellant in a fair number of the rounds when disassembling them and use the average weight as your starting point. When dissasembling them I would get a collet type bullet puller, using the hammer type will get old fast. If you push the bullet in a bit first this will break the seal on the MIL round and it will pull lots easier. Trying some with 10% less up to the largest amount of propellant you weighed as MAX may also provide one load that is a more accurate. I would measure my bullet diameter of the purchased rounds before I bought more bullets. Some reloaders have had good success with a .308 bullet some with .310, .311, or .312 bullets. Slugging your bore is the best route with these rifles. Your die set should come with two expander sizes one for .308 one larger, my Lee set did. The bullets that are commercial JSP will be a LOT shorter in length than the Russian ones as the Russian ones all have a steel core and need to be longer to maintain the same weight so your pressure with the PPU/hunting SP bullets will be less as well when seated to the same external length. Keep in mind that even if you change the propellant those rounds will be corrosive because the primers are still corrosive so clean the rifle well after use. You could use a better propellant for the round also. I like Reloader 15, H4895, and 380 with 150 grain bullets. This will get you a lot quieter report and stop the fireball at the muzzle. Just some random thoughts on your adventure. If you have not ever reloaded before I would try just averaging the weights of the propellant and reusing some of the bullets over for the first attempts to get used to the process.

 

[stubbicatt]

I am sure you can get good results with your proposal. I have done the same with 5.45x39 and Hornady Vmax bullets resized to .221"

I have not tried with the x54r.

My concern initially would be the selection of your pull down propellant charge for whatever bullet you selected. I for one do not know how to evaluate pressure signs in steel cased ammo. The x54r is a relatively low pressure cartridge at about 45,000 PSI, where 308 and 30-06 and others are well north of 50,000 PSI. I would be very hesitant to use the pulldown propellant.

If it were me, I would compare the volume of the steel case to that of an unfired brass case, and see if they are comparable. If they are, I would use the load data from a reputable manual of whatever commercially available cannister grade propellant I liked, and then load accordingly. If it were me, I would approach maximum loads with great caution, as I don't know how to read pressure signs in steel cases.

I would not discard the propellant, but I would save it in an appropriate container and properly identified as to its source. Who knows, maybe one day you may find a use for it!

You save a couple of bucks using the steel cases I guess, and who knows, maybe you can get some really good accuracy with the commercial bullets.

 

[wgaynor]

You need to match the projectile weight and type to the propellant. Don't assume that you can just swap out projectiles and leave the powder to get a good result. The result can be catastrophic. Bullet seating depth is also key.

I'd first identify what you want your results to be. Then get a manual and identify which powder/projectile combo will get you those results. Next, purchase the tools and components.

From there, you are on a good path.

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Have pulled Russian steel cartridges apart.

I had a turquoise colored box of Russian 7.62X54R cartridges that sported a moose on the outside of the box. After shooting three of these with great event of recoil and surprise, and opening the bolt with a 2X4 chunk of wood, I pulled them all apart with an inertia hammer style puller and weighed all the charges.

Propellant was a very dusty fine powder of no comparable appearance to anything I've ever seen. I did the math on the 17 rounds averaged, reduced the amount 10% and put them back together with 39.4 grains of the powder in each. They shot about the same as regular Bear ammo with 203 grain bullets after this treatment.

I had a little powder left over and fertilized the burr oak in the yard.

It would be a lot of work but may accomplish what you desire, try a few and see how they group. Most all the surplus ammo for 7.62X54R I've seen or shot is not underpowered. It probably is all pretty hot even at zero degrees ambient temperatures.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

The main goal is to have both my cheap plinking ammo and my hunting ammo shoot the same without breaking the bank. I can get a case of surplus at $0.20 a round and the replacement projectiles for hunting at about $0.28 a round. This will give me hunting round for about $0.48 a round not counting equipment cost and my time to rebuild a 100 rounds. It is allot cheaper than buying a 100 rounds of commercial hunting loads that will not be shooting the same as the surplus surplus after making it uniform. Cheapest boat tailed hunting rounds I found are running a buck a round. Being disabled I have plenty of time on my hands just not much money left over each month to play with. I will probably need to lighten the loads up some anyway to keep from killing my back anymore than everyday life does on it now. That is one of the reasons I am working on the carbine bad back. The recoil pad and the muzzle brake along with handloading once I have enough brass to load my own should allow me to get back to doing some of the things I love to do. Shooting and hunting.

Edit: Added question, thinking of just buying a starter reloading kit instead of using Dads press do to the time I add everything that is in the kit to dads press I would have spent more than what it cost to buy the complete kit. Any how what manuals out there contain reloading data for the 7.62x54R? So far the free ones that I have downloaded do not include that round. The kit I am looking at is a Lee 50th anniversary kit and I Think it comes with a manual.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Lee #2 reloading manual has data.

 

[stubbicatt]

I just bought the Sierra loading manual. It is actually pretty darned old, so a lot of modern propellants aren't listed. But it has much data for the x54r.

Using your idea and some 4350 I'm loading up the 200 grain Finn bullet (D166?) in some steel cases next chance I get. Curious to see how they do.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Does anyone use a Lee Classic single caliber loader that can tell me what diameter rounds the 7.62x54R kit will handle? I know it will be slow loading with one of these but I figure I can at least start learning with it till I can save up for a real good setup. Also has anyone have any data for this round using 150 grain bullets in a 20 inch barrel and Ramshot TAC powder. I'll be using the M44 for whitetail deer mostly. Any other load data for deer that I can actually find powder and bullets for would be helpful.

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

RCBS dies give choice of .308 or .311.

I do not know which way the Lee set comes. The die set I have gave a choice of neck expander, one allows .308 bullets, the other .311.

The steel case surplus ammo for 7.62X54R will all be .3105 or .311 in bullet diameter. As long as the bullets for hunting are that size you can push them back into the necks with little issue, regardless of the way the Lee set is set up. You will only be using the seat die.

I have a Lee C press, low expense item. The RCBS dies for 7.62X54R are not the least expensive.

I've shot some deer with 125 grain bullets actually designed for the 7.62X39 caliber. They fit the bore of 7.62X54R, are low cost, and are low recoil. They might not hold together the best on the shoulder of a big buck, especially if you ramp up the propellant levels, as they will go 400-600 fps faster than they were designed. I've shot .310, .3105, and .311 size bullets with good results. The ones from Russia were the middle size.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

I thought about the 7.62X39 lead but didn't know if it was too light for deer. Word of wisdom when buying egg sinkers for slugging a bore read the labels closely. I bought a small pack today and was not paying attention much to the label as I was to the size of the sinker, got home and started to slug the barrel and wondered why I couldn't start the sinker even though it was the right size. Dad ask me what I was doing and I told him slugging the barrel. He said you better get a bigger hammer if I was going to use the sinker I had and after I was done slugging it I might want to buy a new barrel while I was at it. He then handed me the package and I read the label closer this time. The egg sinkers were made of STEEL. Now I have to go 60 miles would trip back to town and buy a new pack to slug one barrel.

 

[luis.espinal]

Does anyone use a Lee Classic single caliber loader that can tell me what diameter rounds the 7.62x54R kit will handle?

I was about to ask the same thing since I'm considering going this route of replacing the original bullet with a much heavier soft point one.

I guess one could just save himself the trouble and get some Silver/Brown Bear 203gr ammo which (currently) is just a bit less than $60 a pop (still cheaper than most hunting ammo. Still, it would be nice to know if there is a practical option a-la-cheapo.

I've shot some deer with 125 grain bullets actually designed for the 7.62X39 caliber. They fit the bore of 7.62X54R, are low cost, and are low recoil. They might not hold together the best on the shoulder of a big buck, especially if you ramp up the propellant levels, as they will go 400-600 fps faster than they were designed. I've shot .310, .3105, and .311 size bullets with good results. The ones from Russia were the middle size.

For the 7.62x39 125gr bullets, did you perform adjustments in powder other than the 10% avg. powder reduction you mentioned a few posts above? do when you replaced the bullets?

One thing I would like to see is some data on how to replace the original bullet with, say, a 32-cal bullet (so that the final round looks like one of those Czech practice ammo), for varmint and small critter stuff.

 

[FROGO207]

For adjustments to make it use other weight bullets you MUST use a commercial propellant and the amount listed in a manual! Not just reduce what is in there some arbitrary amount. The Lee die set includes a neck sizer for .308 and .311 sized bullets, at least mine purchased 10 years ago did. Some people have had OK success with .308 bullets accuracy wise in their rifles even with bigger bored barrels. Yours might be one of them. A bullet designed for the 32 WIN SPL (170 grain RNSP) would work out to 100 YDS well for you I would think at a slightly reduced velocity. If you use the pistol bullet like you ask about be sure to keep the velocity in the designed range for them or the bullet might not work as advertised (disintegrate in mid air or tumble). From other comments you have made I assume you are a newer reloader and think some more reading about WHY the need for canister grade propellants and sticking to proven recipes/bullets is needed so that you stay safe at least for the time it takes that you no longer need to ask questions here about such basic things. Just sayin. We want you to be safe and learn without you loosing fingers and eyes.

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Imr 3031

I do not use unknown powder for my reloads of 125 grain bullets in 7.62X54R. All have been in brass cases as well. I was following data found in books, but maybe for 130 grain bullets in the beginning. I have Lyman #47 as well as other manuals, and I probably looked at several before I started years ago.

They are low cost, as the bullets are less expensive than most other 30 caliber. I have used JS Barnaul and Hornady bullets of this size. The brass seems to last well when this is what I use, I doubt if pressure is very high. Recoil is pleasant.

I have moved around a little bit up and down for charge amounts. My M44 groups best with about 42 grains of IMR 3031. Your results may vary and I make no recommendations that this will work in your firearm. The Westinghouse and Remington octagon receiver Mosins in particular might work better with .308 bullets.

A lot of the steel cased surplus ammo forces fire out the bore, especially the carbine length barrels. If you change the size of bullets the pressure could change markedly. You can probably get away with 5 grain differences with little trouble. A lot of the Russian bullets have a steel ring or cup integral to the bullet, just under the guilding metal, that probably gives less pressure than many other styles of bullet, as it probably slides well down the barrel. Almost no one in the world make bullets this way, unless it is for 50BMG.

I quit on IMR 3031 at 150 grain bullets. The range is small and the pressures come up quick even if load data is given in the books. I switch to other powders for larger bullets.

The only steel cased rounds I fooled with were super bad hot in my opinion and I was not going to shoot them as they came. Even the sample size of three I fired are indelible in my memory. It was not a difficult operation. I would not buy anymore boxes of turquoise color with moose on the outside.

FROG0207 is right, I would not use the pulled unknown bases for 125 grain bullets when the bullets pulled were 147 grains. Pressure curves are unknown and results would be unknown as well. It would be better than slapping 175 grain bullets in though....

I always wonder about steel cased ammo. The brass cases have to be a lot softer and hold less pressure. There has to be a lot of wiggle room in the steel cased ammo, and they may already be wiggling in that room a lot...

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

I know if I change weights and type of bullet I wouldn't be able to use the powder already there. That is why I wanted to find out the bullet size differences between the PPU 150 grain SPBT in .311 and the surplus 147 to 149 grain silver tip steel core bullets. Any other type bullet I might use in the future will be in brass that I have fired in my rifle and will be loaded from published data. The Mexican matching is just for cheap hunting and plinking rounds till I get enough brass and supplies to load up some real accurate rounds in brass not steel.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Sorry about the double post but new question. Can anyone tell me where besides graf and sons who is out of stock that carries the PPU 150 grain SPBT .311 bullet for reloading? Also where I can find load data for this bullet in a 20 inch barrel?

 

[rodregier]

Two non-exclusive tips on Mexican match production:

Most mil-spec ammunition uses a sealant on the case mouths. Using a seater die to push the factory projectile say 0.050" deeper will "crack the seal", facilitating removal.

Use a collet bullet-puller. Much more efficient than a kinetic bullet puller, and permits easy recovery of the powder afterwards. Hornady and others make them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

First, are you sure the ammo you are thinking of buying uses a brass case? Some of that ammo uses a copper washed steel case.

IMO you would be better off buying brass and starting from scratch. A pound of powder will load between 130 and 140 rounds and you also save all the time taking apart the ammo you buy. Also, if that brass is Berdan primed you only get to use them once. (yes I know you can reprime them but who wants to go through all that trouble)

IMO the better and safer route would be to start from scratch and build a proper and safe round.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

First, are you sure the ammo you are thinking of buying uses a brass case? Some of that ammo uses a copper washed steel case.

IMO you would be better off buying brass and starting from scratch. A pound of powder will load between 130 and 140 rounds and you also save all the time taking apart the ammo you buy. Also, if that brass is Berdan primed you only get to use them once. (yes I know you can reprime them but who wants to go through all that trouble)

IMO the better and safer route would be to start from scratch and build a proper and safe round.

PPU A.K.A Prvi Partizan is brass cased and boxer primed. Finding the loaded ammo is not the problem. Finding the projectiles that they sell is hard to find over here. They have to be imported and so far the only place I have found that carries them in the US is Graf and sons. The Mexican matching was to give me some cheap hunting rounds that shoot the same as the plinking rounds till I get enough brass saved up from the brass rounds I buy a little at a time. If anyone else knows of another company that makes a 150 grain boat tailed soft point .311 projectile that can be found in the US please let me know. All the rest I have found are heavier and hollow point.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Not boat tails, but spitzers. Sierra #2300. I bought some from Midway a month ago for my SKS. Supposed to be good for the 54. I have some loaded in steel with 1680, waiting for some things to clear up to go to the range.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Guess I will try different types till I find one that works best in my rifle while saving the brass. Have one box of 180 grain S&B soft point but I don't know what bullet they use off hand. I do know that when my brother shot it at 100 meters/110 yards the thing shot a foot high with the iron sights down as far as they go. I will see how it groups after I put it back to together and sight in the scope. And get me some other brands with good brass and the right size bullets in them.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Okay I slugged the Barrel but can not measure it yet because I don't have a caliper yet. The lands and groves are hard to see but show up better in these pictures than with the naked eye. Question is from looking at this slug should I try and re-slug the barrel again or use this one?

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

It should work.

Remember it has high points and low points corresponding to the lands and grooves. You have to measure it several times to get a true idea of what is going on.

I never slugged mine, I started with .308 bullets and they shot only fair groups and fire out ran the bullets via the grooves. I measured a lot of bullets that came in factory loads, those often were .308 bullets and did not shoot so well either. After awhile I found .310 and .311 to work fine and give good accuracy most of the time. The steel cased Russian bullets shoot only fair even though they are right diameter.

Mosin rifles vary in throat dimensions as well, that can be measured in various ways. It changes accuracy with different bullet seating and perhaps different bullets. Between throat and crown there is much to determine final accuracy. The rifling in every one of the Mosin rifles I've seen has been robust.