Miculek says: stop sending the wrong message with open carry activism

[tomrkba]

Yes, but like with the Bundy situation what could I possibly have to gain by defending people that completely terrified a bunch of citizens that might have a chance to vote on 2A rights later?

That's not a good argument because those people do not vote only on 2A grounds. They vote for their pet "issue" and everything else under the sun. There may or may not be a convergence of votes for the pro-2A candidate and they certainly cannot be counted upon to vote pro-2A consistently.

 

[tomrkba]

If you read some of their facebook posts they pretty much tell you exactly what is going on in their minds. No telepathy needed.

You're probably right. Given the passages posted earlier, I would have to develop severe dyslexia just to decipher what they wrote.

Mr Greene, that was from quite some time ago, before California eliminated open unloaded carry completely because of what "activists" did at Starbucks and other places. Now there is only CCW in California, which is one reason, I believe, for recent 9th Circuit victories for CCW permit issuance.
That's where you win, the legislative chamber and the courtroom, not the dining room.

California citizens possess and carry arms at the whim of the California legislature. There is no RKBA in the California constitution to limit what the legislature can do. The recent SCOTUS decisions allow for restrictions on 2A grounds. They will not be able to ban OC in other states without changing the constitution of those states. (Virginia painted itself into a corner on this because it declared concealed carry to be a privilege and protected open carry as a right).

 

[HexHead]

Agreed. Think about the issue of Islamic terrorism. When a Muslim terrorist blows up some people, some are quick to point out that such people don't represent all Muslims. The counter-argument is usually, "Where, then, is the Muslim outcry against such behavior? Where are the protests against al Queda on the Arab street?" The lack of clear and unequivocal denunciation by a group of something done in the name of that group is taken as tacit approval of the action in question.

So not coming out and strongly denouncing the events of Sandy Hook, where a deranged young man killed his mother, stole her guns and killed children means we tacitly approved of shooting up an elementary school? Interesting.

 

[larryh1108]

They're probably sitting around, drinking their brews, smoking their doobs and high fiving because THEY were the reason a chain banned OC. They must be so proud of themselves for becoming famous.

 

[Joe Demko]

Pretty sure we denounced the events at Sandy Hook. If you can link to posts where anybody defended the shooter, i'm willing to admit my error.

 

[tommy.duncan]

Remember, Guys like this only make the "angry gun nut" case stronger for the anti's. In Virginia signs and stickers have no force of law, but, strapping a long arm over your shoulder only brings bad attention. I CCW and keep it to myself and my immediate company.
Please don't make it easier for the anti's!!!

 

[HexHead]

UPDATE: Chipotle has asked customers to leave their guns at home in a statement released on Monday afternoon:

“The issue of gun ownership or gun rights has become one of the most contentious debates in the country. Chipotle has never taken a position on this issue, as we focus instead on our mission to change the way people think about and eat fast food.

Recently participants from an “open carry” demonstration in Texas brought guns (including military-style assault rifles) into one of our restaurants, causing many of our customers anxiety and discomfort. Because of this, we are respectfully asking that customers not bring guns into our restaurants, unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Historically, we felt it enough to simply comply with local laws regarding the open or concealed carrying of firearms, because we believe that it is not fair to put our team members in the uncomfortable position of asking that customers refrain from bringing guns into our restaurants. However, because the display of firearms in our restaurants has now created an environment that is potentially intimidating or uncomfortable for many of our customers, we think it is time to make this request.

We acknowledge that there are strong arguments on both sides of this issue. We have seen those differing positions expressed in the wake of this event in Texas, where pro-gun customers have contacted us to applaud our support of the Second Amendment, and anti-gun customers have expressed concern over the visible display of military-style assault rifles in restaurants where families are eating. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible citizens and we appreciate them honoring this request. And we hope that our customers who oppose the carrying of guns in public agree with us that it is the role of elected officials and the legislative process to set policy in this area, not the role of businesses like Chipotle.”

- quoted from http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc...-chipotle-to-ban-guns-after-open-carry-event/

Sounds to me, that like Starbucks, they are not going to actually post their establishments, just request people not carry in them.

They want their burrito and eat it too.

 

[gbw]

From ETTIN:

We in the RKBA community need to stop dismissing as emotional or unreachable or unreasonable those of our neighbors, co-workers, the people in our community, etc., who don't share our positions . We need more of them on our side. We need more of those who we can't completely win over to at least be more neutral. And to do so, we need to start trying to understand them and tailor our messages to be accessible to them given their interests, values and concerns.

This exactly. There are many many more of them than there are of us. Unless many more of us get it, and get it soon, we will lose. Our vaunted 'right' disappears the instant too many of them decide we should no longer have it.

The 2 slobs in the photo sadly are not uncommon and they do incalculable damage.

 

[HexHead]

...why do these two idiots and others like them feel it necessary to scare people having lunch with their kids by acting like Rambo?
Honestly if I were eating and saw those two jerks with loaded long guns and cameo outfits come in, I might think it was a robbery about to take place, and have my weapon at the ready, it's just stupid.

Pot calling the kettle black?

 

[taliv]

i think it was a very good response.

in fact, i just ate at chipotle tonight. good for them.


personally, i think we ARE in a society where most people don't freak over long guns. i've walked into hotels all over the country with uncased long guns. i've never had an adverse reaction. nobody's ever complained. of course, i'm not taking selfies and making a spectacle of myself. just going from point a to point b with a gun.

i'd like to keep it that way.

 

[Joe Demko]

Pot calling the kettle black?

No, more of a situational awareness thing. We're big on that here.

 

[stressed]

///

 

[Agsalaska]

I will first admit that I spotread this thread.

I think the most important point here is being completely missed, especially by those that support what these guys did. I live in Texas. I support open carry. It is illegal in Texas. Therefore the goal of mine, and these cats that did this, is alligned in trying to legalize open carry. The break between why these guys and those that admire them think they are smart and guys like me who think they are complete idiots is underrstand how to advance a cause. Just becasue you exercise a right does not mean you advance a cause. The most important concept when trying to advance a public cause no matter what that cause may be is controlling the message. What these guys did, whether legal or protected or whatever, moved control of the message away from those for open carry to those against it. That, by iteslf, no matter what else is considered, no matter how righteous you think it may have been, made it a bad move. I assure you it set the cause back no matter how much they should have the right to do it. You can shout that all you want but, if you dont control the message, you will be shouting from behind prison bars if you are not careful.

 

[oneounceload]

Sorry, these two acted like complete morons and should be vilified by everyone on both sides of the issue

 

[Nom de Forum]

Open carry in a city when concealed carry is legal seems to be more often about some pathetic jackass posing as a tough guy than it is about any necessity to carry openly.

I really saddens me to see so many people who support the RKBA who behave in ways that do nothing but aid the opposition. If I had been present when those fools walked in with their rifles I would have told them they were doing more to harm the RKBA than support it. We all need to actively object to stupidity when it occurs. Those two jackasses may not have violated firearm laws but if their actions were disruptive they could possibly be cited for disorderly conduct.

 

[JRH6856]

Those two jackasses may not have violated firearm laws but if their actions were disruptive they could possibly be cited for disorderly conduct.

They claim the employees welcomed them with smiles (seems prudent when faced with two armed individuals) and all the customers ignored them, except for a couple that wanted to talk guns. OTOH, I've seen third party reports that at least one person complained to them about having the guns around children.

I have seen arrests for Disorderly Conduct made in similar situations.

 

[Warp]

Open carry in a city when concealed carry is legal seems to be more often about some pathetic jackass posing as a tough guy than it is about any necessity to carry openly.

That's quite the broad brush you are painting with there.

I really saddens me to see so many people who claim to support the RKBA lash out with such hostility.

 

[Agsalaska]

That's quite the broad brush you are painting with there.

I really saddens me to see so many people who claim to support the RKBA lash out with such hostility.

When they do something that passes control of the message to the anits and set back the cause what do you expect?

We want to get laws passed.

 

[Warp]

When they do something that passes control of the message to the anits and set back the cause what do you expect?

We want to get laws passed.

The statement I quoted was:

"Open carry in a city when concealed carry is legal seems to be more often about some pathetic jackass posing as a tough guy than it is about any necessity to carry openly."

 

[Agsalaska]

Gotcha. I misread it.

 

[HexHead]

The statement I quoted was:

"Open carry in a city when concealed carry is legal seems to be more often about some pathetic jackass posing as a tough guy than it is about any necessity to carry openly."

Or it's just more comfortable, especially in hotter weather.

 

[Nom de Forum]

That's quite the broad brush you are painting with there.

I really saddens me to see so many people who claim to support the RKBA lash out with such hostility.

Broad brush? I guess that is a matter of perspective. I did limit the size of the brush with the words "seems to be more often". If you think I was "lash(ing) out with such hostility", I think you need to grow a thicker skin and face the political realities of what can and cannot be done to aid the defense of the RKBA. The behavior of Ren and Stempy parading with their rifles should be so strongly condemned no one will ever want to face that level of criticism.

Hexhead - Or it's just more comfortable, especially in hotter weather.

I live in the Sonoran Desert surrounded by millions of city dwellers. Open and CCW is legal. It is very rare to see anyone in the city openly carrying even when it is 115 degrees in July. Given the choice between being sensibly to political realities or being comfortable and provocative most people CCW here.

 

[Warp]

Broad brush? I guess that is a matter of perspective. I did limit the size of the brush with the words "seems to be more often". If you think I was "lash(ing) out with such hostility", I think you need to grow a thicker skin and face the political realities of what can and cannot be done to aid the defense of the RKBA. The behavior of Ren and Stempy parading with their rifles should be so strongly condemned no one will ever want to face that level of criticism.



I live in the Sonoran Desert surrounded by millions of city dwellers. Open and CCW is legal. It is very rare to see anyone in the city openly carrying even when it is 115 degrees in July. Given the choice between being sensibly to political realities or being comfortable and provocative most people CCW here.

My skin is fine...but I do prefer that supposedly pro RKBA posters on THR not call people "pathetic jackasses" simply for open carrying when they could conceal.

Typically THR has a pretty strict policy against insulting people and name calling...but I guess that only applies when talking directly to other members.

 

[Sam1911]

I, for one, would very much like NOT to have this (pair of) conversation(s) derailed to argue general open-vs.-concealed carry AGAIN. What these doods did is a very special case of actions having very (VERY) little with what 99% of us think of as "open carry" - i.e. going about normal public course of business while wearing a holstered handgun, unconcealed.

There are grandstanding goobers who do that, of course, and much "context" to consider, but there are a whole lot of normal folks just doing what they do, while armed.

Avoiding that broad brush thing will help us not be divided needlessly.

 

[Atom Smasher]

That's not a good argument because those people do not vote only on 2A grounds. They vote for their pet "issue" and everything else under the sun. There may or may not be a convergence of votes for the pro-2A candidate and they certainly cannot be counted upon to vote pro-2A consistently.

Whoosh! My point wasn't to relate 2A votes to the Bundy situation, it was to point out that unconditional support of anyone "protesting" or participating in some "activism" isn't prudent as support of some of these idiots hurt our cause. Just like with the Bundy situation- even if I support causes that align with Bundy's stand on things, I would be silly to support him because of how inflammatory his remarks were. If we're going to really sit down and get some progress on the 2A front, we need to be more realistic about how much progress we can make with a single argument. Wouldn't an open-carry rally (with police support and letting the city know with lots of brightly colored signs etc.) be a better use of our arguing power than undercutting ourselves with a stupid stunt like this?