UK paper asks: What's wrong with shooting burglars?

[alan]

agricola:

What is the "offical attitude" regarding the carriage of what have been described as "offensive weapons", things that might otherwise known as the tools of ones trade?

As to self defense still being upheld in the courts, there is or might be some question as to that.

If I recall, correction if necessary, you are British, I'm American. Our basic frames of reference are quite different, as are the contexts of the places where we grew up. These factors might, to some extent at least, serve to expalin differences of view point/opinion/outlook.

As to the Martin case being or not being about self defense, I suppose it depends on how one spells self defense. As I said above, there might well be, based on things beyond our control, a basic difference in our respective outlooks, points of view, that sort of thing. Not so much a question of the one being right, while the other is wrong, just that each is markedly different from the other.

 

[seeker_two]

agricola is British. He is also an LEO.

Draw your own conclusions...

 

[rrader]

seeker_two

agricola is British. He is also an LEO.

They're called "Plods" in the UK for some reason.

 

[alan]

Agricola:

Another poster offered the following: "agricola is British. He is also an LEO."

Fair enough, each of us has to be somewhere, doing something.

By the way, I assume that you know who Colin Greenwood, if he is still with us was. If not, he was Chief Inspector, West Yorkshire Constabulary, prior to retirement, or to his being perhaps pushed out. I suspect that the book he wrote, which many years ago I read, made any number of people in politics and LE less than happy.

The benefit of your thinking re his take on the value of British gun laws is requested, should you care to offer it.

I first came upon Mr. Greenwood via a televised interview/discussion program that was broadcast here quite some years back.

 

[Erik]

Good article from across the pond. MAybe they are awakening...?

 

[agricola]

alan,

Greenwood was correct in his conclusions; in that he stated that the various Firearms Laws have had no effect, either positive or negative, on the overall crime rate. Thats something that has been forgotten or ignore by many people who wish to cite his work as proof that the bans have caused crime to skyrocket.

as it happens, there is some evidence that the handgun ban especially has had some effect on the arming patterns of criminals - nearly 50% of recovered firearms from criminals and crime scenes are converted replicas.

rrader,

how about you repeat the same tired ad hominem statements over and over again? it saves you from admitting your legion of mistakes and mere fibbery, after all.

 

[Mk VII]

P.C. Plod was the policeman character in Enid Blyton's 'Noddy' series of books for children. Usually portrayed as a rather unpleasant bully, his name became an unaffectionate term for police officers generally.
The London Metropolitan Police's views on weapons are at http://www.met.police.uk/youth/weapons.htm

 

[seeker_two]

That things classified as offensive weapons can be carried in certain circumstances:

at work

for religious reasons

weapons worn as part of national costume


.

Guess everyone could go around dressed as Scotsmen...

If you are found guilty of making, selling, hiring, lending or giving a sharp instrument or blade you are liable to: imprisonment, a fine of up to £5000, or both.

How do restaruants & silverware stores stay in business?...

Avoid trouble
...Don't look someone in the eye - it may look like a challenge.
.

...and serfs should appear appropriately supplicant.

If you are being followed
Knock at the nearest door and ask the people there to call the police.

Worked for Kitty Genovese...

If you are attacked
Shout as loudly as you can. Get away rather than get even.

Hand over money or valuables - they can be replaced but scars last a lifetime.

Surrender: If it's good enough for the French...

Hard to believe London has a crime problem with all these sharp minds about...

 

[Mk VII]

even Scotsmen have been arrested for wearing the skean dhu. They now make a dummy clip-on one without a blade.
You can't even buy a blade for your razor now unless you're 17 (I think).

 

[scbair]

Agricola

You mention that a significant number of the "handguns" now used by armed criminals are converted replicas. Does this mean a homeowner can convert a replica to fire live ammo and he/she will be treated as leniently as will the street trash? What if I convert a couple of pieces of pipe to spray buckshot rather than water, and keep it beside my bed?

I am told a non-locking pocketknife with blade less than 3" is legal to carry; do the authorities not know non-locking blades are safety hazards? Why do they not demand that ALL folding knives have effective safety locks?

"Get away rather than get even"??? I can't run as fast as a 19 year old street scavenger; I don't want him to do anything that would require my "getting even." I want to STOP the worthless scum before he can harm me! I believe that's what we, in the uncivilized USA, call "self defense;" you would undoubtedly call it "vigilantiism."

Please stay in the UK, where your government seems intent on making sure no citizen can intrude on your precious LEO prerogatives. We have plenty of left-wing radicals (I refuse to call them "liberals;" a true liberal is a free and original thinker. Our "lefties" haven't had any original thoughts in years. As for free, HA! I've paid for every durned one of 'em!). We need no new ones.

 

[Iain]

Fairly sure the rules are that the blade must be of a locking type, otherwise I break the law fairly regularly.

 

[alan]

Agricola:

From what I recall of Greenwoods contentions, based on research he did, I believe at Cambridge, the following might prove interesting to think on.

His investigations, he claimed, clearly showed that for the significant police time and effort invested in enforcement of the firearms laws then in effect, relatively loose compared to the current genre, that the above mentioned time and effort could have been much better utilized in other directions.

This was, as I recall, the general sense of his conclusions. He also mentioned that prior to the 1920's virtually anyone could enter a gun shop, and walk away, having purchased any type of firearms available therein, without question. He also mentioned, as I recall, that under those circumstances, the incidence of gun crime was very much lower than it became later on, when all manner of restrictive gun laws had been enacted, when all manner of restrictive gun policies had been foisted off on the public.

True statement??

 

[MicroBalrog]

Did You Know?
That canisters of CS gas sold as self-defence to women are illegal in this country.

Good think my Mom doesn't live ther...

That antique weapons become offensive weapons if carried in a public place with the intention to cause injury.

And the burden of proof is on you, too!

That a flick knife is an offensive weapon - no question.

No comment needed.

 

[Zedicus]

scbair: I am told a non-locking pocketknife with blade less than 3" is legal to carry; do the authorities not know non-locking blades are safety hazards?

Who ever said that the Lawmakers had any Common Sence?

St Johns: Fairly sure the rules are that the blade must be of a locking type, otherwise I break the law fairly regularly.

Well, only 2-3 months ago in my area a guy was sentanced to 6 months
for having a mini swiss army knife (One of These!) in his posession...
(i can try and find a link about it if you want, but it will take quite a while)
no idea if it's only a localised thing, but either way it ticks me off...

 

[agricola]

Well, only 2-3 months ago in my area a guy was sentanced to 6 months
for having a mini swiss army knife (One of These!) in his posession...
(i can try and find a link about it if you want, but it will take quite a while)
no idea if it's only a localised thing, but either way it ticks me off...

is this another one of your stories Zedicus or did it actually happen?

 

[Waitone]

Reading this thread gives me a nice, warm feeling about our future stateside.

We now have three SCOTUS judges who will admit to using law and social morays from other countries in rendering interpretations of US law.

I look forward to UK law being used in sorting out US self-defense laws.

I just knew we had it wrong these many years. Now is our chance to get back on the straight and narrow. Hey, maybe we can get the Brits and Aussies to help us sort out our second amendment.

 

[HBK]

Can't those three justices be removed for doing that? Other countries laws have nothing to do with US laws. Any justice that says they will look at other countries legal precedents should be run out of office.

 

[Mk VII]

No stabbing charges for blind man
By Paul Stokes (Filed: 07/08/2003)

A blind man who was arrested after a scuffle in which an intruder was fatally stabbed on his driveway will not face criminal charges, police said yesterday.
Thomas O'Connor, 62, was held after Lee Kelso, 23, died from a knife wound during a disturbance outside a house at Brinnington, near Stockport, Greater Manchester.
Mr Kelso, who had been drinking in a nearby pub, was urinating in the front garden when Mr O'Connor shouted at him to go away.
It led to an altercation between the two men during which Mr Kelso received two stab wounds.
When interviewed, Mr O'Connor said he had been acting in self defence and, after a seven-week investigation, Crown Prosecution Service lawyers have decided it would not be in the public interest for him to stand trial.

 

[KC]

"Just because 12 members of a jury found him guilty does not mean he was so."

And just because 12 members of a jury find you not guilty does not mean you are innocent. Just ask O.J. Simpson.

 

[agricola]

KC,

OJ Simpson is innocent of those murders

 

[HBK]

Good point, KC. Don't know why that double standard escaped me.

Agricola: I bet you could get all these guys to stop busting your balls if you admitted that the crime rate in England has skyrocketed because of the gun ban.

 

[scbair]

Agricola

O. J. Simpson was found "not guilty";
however, O. J. Simpson was not, and cannot be, found "innocent."
Big difference.

 

[KC]

Agricola:

As has already been pointed out, there is a difference twixt "innocent" and "not guilty".

Speaking of double standards, while there was a great deal of outrage over a jury finding Simpson not guilty after the circus he and his lawyer turned that trial into, it really does not compare to what happened after another (Los Angeles) jury issued it's verdict after the end of the Rodney King trial.


HBK: you wrote
"I bet you could get all these guys to stop busting your balls if you admitted that the crime rate in England has skyrocketed because of the gun ban."

Think on this:
"Agricola: Roman soldier and politician who as governor of Britain (77-84) brought most of its inhabitants under Roman control." (From Dictionary.com)


KC

 

[AmericanFreeBird]

Well, the only advice I could offer would be to kill anyone you find breaking into your home and transport their carcasses somewhere where they won't be found soon and hope for the best.

Maybe you country folk need to get yourselves some hogs.

 

[agricola]

kc,

dictionary.coms definition is incorrect - Gnaeus Iulius Agricola became governor when all but a tiny part of North West Wales (the territory of the Ordovicii) and England north of a line Chester - Hull was already pacified - indeed the territory immediately north of that line (the territory of the Brigantes) had been traversed by one of the previous governors P. Cerialis (aka the luckiest man in Roman history) in company with Agricola on his last posting, and was largely pacified by that date (the Brigantes had remained loyal during the Boudica rebellion) despite some internal discontents. Beyond them there was nothing of real importance, then as now

Once Agricola had conquered the remainder of the country following the battle of Mons Graupius most of that area was then released - perdomita Britannia et statim missa - because of the jealousy of the emperor Domitian.

Besides, being found not guilty means you are innocent of the crime its alleged you have committed. Cochrane and the rest of OJ's flunkies may have seriously abused the judicial system in the process, but it doesnt change the fact that he was found not guilty.