UK paper asks: What's wrong with shooting burglars?

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keith,

You live under a centralized authoritarian system where a Londoner lives under the same rules, tax base, laws and system as someone in a small village in Yorkshire. And the people who live in those two places will be much more unanimous in their opinions and outlook since their behavior is dictated by that same centralized framework of control.

this statement displays better than any discourse of mine how deeply mistaken you are.
 
KC,

Most people aren't going to be familiar with Plato, yet the old folk tale of the "fox who lost his brush" embodies the same wisdom.

Keith
 
this statement displays better than any discourse of mine how deeply mistaken you are.

Really? Can one own and carry a handgun, and the other not? Do the schools in Yorkshire have different books, standards and curricula than those in London? Can one build an addition to his house without groveling before the housing commision, and the other not? Can one even paint his house any color he wants, and the other one not? Can one fly a remote control airplane without permission from the proper authorities, and the other not? Can one own a television without a license, and the other not? Can one let his dog run off the leash, and the other not?

I don't think you realize how little you can do without getting a license, paying a tax or getting permission from some "authority". And I don't think you realize how much living under such a system has colored your world-view!

Keith
 
argicola:
"Now listen, everything I have told you is correct, but if ever some Yank comes along and says something else, he or she is automatically right and the rest of world history is wrong."

I do not know your Dr Shotter, but try reading the text for yourself. If you want to hold an opinion counter to that of several military historians and your own source, fine. I can hardly stop you. I can correct you.

"quiet please, theyre about to argue that everyone is guilty that the media says is"
That is untrue and asinine, as you damm well ought to know.

Microbalrog:

"Innocent until proven guilty" simply places the burden of proof onto the prosecution to demonstrate the defendant's guilt, as opposed to the Napoleonic code (based on, oddly enough, Roman law), where the burden of proof is placed on the defendant to demonstrate his innocence. It is not itself a verdict.

Keith:
Actually, I am not that familiar with Aesop, so until you brought up that particular parable, I had not ever heard the story. Same intent, but one for classists and another for children.
 
KC,

I didn't know the fox story went back to Aesop. I thought it was an Irish/British folk tale.

Either way, it is illustrative of an important truth. My twelve year old son can own a gun, yet an adult in GB can not - or can only do so under very restrictive circumstances.
I sometimes catch a British tv show where people "bodge" together various vehicles and machines in a junkyard. It's a fun show, yet I'm occassionally amazed at some limitation imposed by the "authorities". On one episode they built remote control aircraft and took a moment to describe the various licenses and "permissions" they had to obtain to be able to fly them at some old rock quarry out in the country - can you imagine?
On other episodes they had to jump through hoops to launch model rockets and to build crude black powder cannons.

This is stuff that kids do in this country (well, the cannons might require some adult oversight...) without the involvement of gubmint bureacrats or large sums of money for "licenses".

We don't impose such controls on kids, so I can't imagine what it's like to be an adult and live in such a place!

Keith
 
KC,

Everything I have stated is based on history AND the Agricola. You are the one who has taken one paragraph totally out of context and cited it as evidence, but I guess parading that ignorance is somehow satisfying to you. You have been told the facts, but I guess they must be beyond you. Which battles did Agricola fight in Southern Britain? Where are the Agricolan-period marching camps in the South? Where are the references in the Agricola to campaigns in the South? Where in the first century AD did the majority of the British people reside (clue: its not North)?

If of course you can counter this by showing me where in the Agricola it states that he brought most of the population under control, bring it on. You will then of course have to explain why the majority of those people were swiftly taken out of Roman control by the emperor Domitian, but I have tommorrow off and am in need of some humour.

Its not asnine as you admitted:

Did I have equal access to the evidence as did the jury? Thanks to the media coverage, yes. (Due to media coverage, the general public probably had *better* access to all evidence than did the jury.)

Your statements are based on the case made by the media, not the case made to the jury. A citizen is innocent until found guilty. OJ Simpson was found not guilty of those crimes by a criminal court. He is therefore innocent, as he was all along.

keith,

The pupils in Yorkshire have a different curriculum (which can vary from school to school), a different exam board and can have different subjects )indeed this can vary from school to school as well). Schools in Wales can and do teach the Welsh language, which is not taught in most of England. The rate of council tax is different in parts of Yorkshire, never mind when compared to London, or anywhere else in the country. A person in Yorkshire would be rather cross with you were you to compare him to a Cockney, and if you compared him with a Lancastrian then you would probably be going home air-freight.

Planning departments vary from County Council to County Council - one compares the horrid City with its mishmash of offices with a frankly beautiful place like Chester or York - but they serve a vital purpose in protecting important and historical buildings from abuse by landowners. I can hear your response already regarding "Well, its their property", but the ethos here in a country where there is almost 4000 years of visible history amongst monuments, cities and towns must be to protect that history for future generations.

Your statement at the end is laughable - that I am automatically wrong because I am not from the US.
 
but they serve a vital purpose in protecting important and historical buildings from abuse by landowners.

Aaaahhhh, but the landowner might think some bureaucrat telling him he can't build an extra room for his new kid might be abuse!

As I said, having never been allowed to exercise control of your own life and property, you can't imagine why such a state of affairs would be desirable!

Keith
 
micro,

he said:

And I don't think you realize how much living under such a system has colored your world-view!

Coloured it from what exactly? Twisted it from the norm? The norm that says a man is innocent unless found guilty or if we think he is guilty anyway?
 
Speak to the Junkyard War people. Out in the wilds of Kent (or wherever they are) they must get permission from the British equivalent of the FAA to fly those planes or launch model rockets. They went so far as to explain that the zone in which these deadly toys were to be used would be made off-limits to aircraft for the duration of the test.

They also explained that the solid rocket propellants were controlled items that had to be handled by licensed "experts" who actually placed them in the rockets and hooked them up to the launch mechanism/battery.

This is the kind of stuff that ten year olds buy at Wal-Mart and launch at the local ball field on Saturdays, in this country.

Bureaucracy gone mad!

Keith
 
I sometimes catch a British tv show where people "bodge" together various vehicles and machines in a junkyard. It's a fun show, yet I'm occassionally amazed at some limitation imposed by the "authorities"
Sounds like one I watch called Scrapheap Challange...:)
On one episode they built remote control aircraft and took a moment to describe the various licenses and "permissions" they had to obtain to be able to fly them at some old rock quarry out in the country - can you imagine?
On other episodes they had to jump through hoops to launch model rockets and to build crude black powder cannons.
Hence why I had to Give up on 2 of my Favorete Hobbies:(, I couldn't afford the planes & accessories/rockets & Accessories and the bloody fees imposed by the daft restrictions...:fire:
Bureaucracy gone mad!
Yep! you Got it in One shot with that Keith!:D
 
Zed,

Come on over and get a new start in Southern Alaska! The weather will be the same, but other things will be a little different. We'll order up a kit and build a custom L1A1 (in memory of a better England) for you on my kitchen table and then bodge together a few rockets, etc, and then go blow some stuff up - legally!

Keith
 
agricola: zedicus,

are you ever going to supply evidence for your suspicious death stories?
Can you give me one Good Reason why I should waste 6 hours looking for links that have probably been long since moved/erased?
Zed,

Come on over and get a new start in Southern Alaska! The weather will be the same, but other things will be a little different. We'll order up a kit and build a custom L1A1 (in memory of a better England) for you on my kitchen table and then bodge together a few rockets, etc, and then go blow some stuff up - legally!

Keith
Sounds Like fun, But unfortunitly It'll be a while till I can move....:(
 
Tommy Gunn

http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_page_id=2&in_article_id=191228

What's wrong with shooting burglars?
By PETER HITCHENS, Mail on Sunday
August 3, 2003

You and your wife are alone in your house late at night. You are woken by footsteps and banging downstairs. What do you do?

If you have any sense at all, you will do nothing and hope the intruder goes away quickly. If he bursts into your bedroom, you would be wise to submit to him and not to look at him too carefully in case he gets the idea that you might be able to identify him later.

You know that if you ring the police they will probably take too long and may not come at all. And if you resist the thief, attack or injure him, you are likely to find yourself in a shared cell watching trash TV and eating prison slop with plastic cutlery as you do your time.

You are even more likely to be sued shamelessly and successfully in the courts by the man who has robbed you. If you kill him, which at least means he cannot sue you or intimidate you or come back for more, then the law will probably treat you as a murderer, making no legal distinction between you and Harold Shipman.

In the unlikely event that the thief is caught and prosecuted, he and his friends will be free to terrorise you into withdrawing your evidence, and the jury that hears the case into acquitting him, since a feeble police force rarely, if ever, acts to stop such things and often does not bother to patrol court buildings any more.

If by any chance he is convicted, he will swiftly be released under one of 'tough' David Blunkett's many schemes for letting prisoners out as rapidly as possible. He might even come back to steal whatever he left behind the first time.

Countless citizens, especially women living alone, now sleep with some sort of weapon or blunt instrument by their beds in case they are disturbed by thieves in the night. Others, especially those living in the countryside where the police have vanished, look thoughtfully at their legal firearms and wonder if they dare use them, even as a deterrent.

This is the disgusting, pitiful state of the law of Britain in 2003. Unless it is changed, it is only a matter of time before the prosperous suburbs of Britain are laid waste and plundered by armies of thieves, rightly confident that nobody can or will stop them and that they will not be punished.

It is only the surviving illusion, on both sides that we still live in a policed and law-governed country that stops this happening today.

Tony Martin, a strange and muttering loner, has won the sympathy of millions not because he is a good example or because he behaved well when he shot a burglar dead.

His popularity is the result of frustration and rage among the law-abiding who feel that they could easily have acted as Martin did. They probably won't because they are more worldly and have more sense.

On the one occasion I spoke to Martin, shortly before his trial, I told him he was very likely to be convicted. He was astonished. He still thought he lived in an older Britain of stout-hearted juries and robust judges where his action would be excused if not applauded.

That country died some time in the past ten years. As recently as 1993, Judge Daniel Rodwell awarded Malcolm Hammond £300 for shooting two armed robbers who raided his home, saying: 'He showed great gallantry in tackling these dangerous men and protecting his pregnant wife from further harm.'

But the shadows of political correctness were already deepening, though few realised it at the time. Six months later Mr Hammond was brought back to the same court and fined more than £2,000 because the pistol he had used was illegally held. Mr Hammond always denied this and said he had wrestled the gun from one of his assailants.

Once upon a time, nobody would have cared all that much, but in John Major's semi-Socialist Britain it was slowly becoming clear that the law was now neutral between 'offender' and 'victim'.

By the time Martin came to court it was even worse. The system wanted to make it clear that it disapproved much more of Martin for killing a burglar than it did of the fact that he was burgled in the first place. Huge pressure was placed on Martin to recant and show remorse for his action. He was kept in prison far longer because he wouldn't.

No parallel effort was made to make burglar Brendan Fearon do the same, though he was almost as responsible for the death of Fred Barras as was Martin. In fact, the prison system couldn't spit him out fast enough and - despite Mr Blunkett's bluster and demands for explanations - the Home Secretary knew perfectly well that this was the case.

Until recently, Britons were allowed to defend their homes and to keep weapons, just as many Americans still do.

Partly because the US is still much more rural than we are, and proper policing is impossible, the old British idea that a burglar loses his rights when he breaks into someone's home is still very much in force. That is why 'hot' burglary, where the homeowner is in his house, is so much rarer there than here.

In Britain now we have the worst of both worlds - police who can't or won't protect us, and no right to protect ourselves. How did this happen?

Some think it was the abolition of the old Common Law rules by the Criminal Law Act in 1967. But actually this wasn't so. In the hands of old-fashioned judges and juries, the 1967 defence of 'reasonable force' would excuse almost any action.

What changed - as in all the other great pillars of British life - were the people and the ideas that drove them. The police chiefs stopped being old military men and were replaced by social science graduates.

Guardian-reading Crown Prosecutors supplanted battle-hardened police prosecution officers. Respectable, middle- aged property-owning jurors in three-piece suits disappeared to make way for slumped, unemployed teenagers in shell suits.

The judges stopped being gnarled, disillusioned veterans of the criminal courts and made way for Sixties idealists who think criminals need help. The law became a favourite profession for people whose views were so wildly Left-wing that they could never win an election, but who wanted political power anyway.

It was a clever move. At least until the Blair victory in 1997, elite liberal lawyers and judges, radical Home Office civil servants progressive' prison governors and Left - wing police chiefs were the most powerful radicals in the country.

Piece by piece, they took control of the law so that it defied common sense and instead served their crackpot, guilt-driven ideas of social justice.

Martin had to be punished severely because he had tried to impose the old conservative law, which has now been abolished. Anyone who was thinking of doing the same thing had to be warned that on this, at least, the law would come down hard.

There was something very symbolic about the way Martin, once convicted, was then seen being led away handcuffed to a female guard, about as politically correct a message as you could send. Was it perhaps deliberate?

And it was only when he claimed to have been sexually abused as a child, the standard liberal excuse for all kinds of misdeeds, that his conviction was reduced from murder to manslaughter.

Interestingly, police officers who shoot suspects rashly or by mistake tend to get let off. It wasn't because he had killed someone that Martin was being punished, but because he had challenged the new liberal monopoly of force.

All that would be bad enough. But what makes it unbearable, and what brought it to boiling point for Martin, is that the police have vanished at the same time.

As police have been withdrawn from foot patrol, police houses and stations in the countryside have been shut down in great numbers.

The combination of weak law and absent constables has hit isolated country dwellers first. They know that if they call for help, none will come in time, whereas the rest of us just suspect that this is so. Rural people and those who rob them have realised - as the rest of the country is just beginning to do --that we are now halfway back to the Dark Ages.

The ridiculous temporary police station now sitting next to Martin's farm does nothing to overcome this since it will sooner or later have to be dismantled, and then where will Martin be?

And it is because Martin is a rather batty and quick-tempered eccentric that he has been the first property holder to discover the real nature of the new law. A more normal, reasonable person would have submitted, or moved away, or simply got rid of any valuable property so he had nothing to steal.

Many of us already adapt and change our lives in this defeatist way. Lots of police forces will give you a printed label to say that there is nothing valuable in your car, for instance.

But as we make these little surrenders, we know in our hearts that we are running away from a foe we really ought to confront, and leaving our children a legacy of lawlessness and chaos.

It may be wise to give in, but it is also shameful. And that is why so many of us are pleased when we see someone fighting back, however foolish it may be for him to do so.
 
Agricola

Searched on "torso" on the Daily Telegraph and got this. Will this do in the absence of Zedicus supplying same?

LINK

Torso in the Thames: 21 people arrested in police raids
By John Steele, Crime Correspondent
(Filed: 30/07/2003)


Police investigating the murder of a young African boy whose dismembered torso was found in the Thames have arrested a gang suspected of bringing hundreds of people, including many children, into Britain illegally.

Senior detectives said yesterday that they believed the gang was responsible for trafficking Adam - the name given by police to the boy whose torso was found - into the country.

ntors30.jpeg

Voodoo artefact: an animals skull pierced with a nail recovered during one of the raids


Scotland Yard is convinced that he was brought here to be murdered in a ritualistic sacrificial ceremony. It is thought the gang passed Adam on to those who killed him for the "benefit" of whoever commissioned the sacrifice of the boy, who was aged between four and seven and whose mutilated torso was found floating near Tower Bridge in September 2001.

Trafficking of children for such murderous purposes is extremely rare and it is not suggested the people held yesterday were bringing in people for sacrifices.

However, they are suspected of being a significant presence in the West African end of the multi-million-pound people smuggling trade, which brings thousands of illegal immigrants into Britain every month. One officer said the gang may have brought "hundreds, if not thousands" of people into Britain.

One police and Home Office estimate suggests 250 children enter Britain every month illegally, many with parents or relatives but others on their own.

It is suspected that some African children are trafficked onwards to locations such as Italy where they work, effectively, as domestic slave labour.

More than 200 Metropolitan Police officers, some in riot gear, raided addresses in south, south-east and north London and arrested 21 people yesterday. One had a young baby.

Most were from the Benin City area of Nigeria. Forensic tests on Adam suggest he came from the region around Benin City. Ten of the 21 were said to be illegal immigrants.

Tests were being carried out last night on what police described as "substances" - including types of soil and clay - and on an unidentified animal's skull, with a nail driven through it, which was found wrapped in cloth in a suitcase.

Scotland Yard described the skull as a "bizarre voodoo artefact". A spokesman said: "The object appears to be that of an animal skull with a large metal hook driven into it by a rock. It has been wrapped in what appears to be black thread."

Detectives want to establish whether any of the items are similar to elements of what was believed to be a ritualistic concoction, including ground bone, fed to Adam before he was killed.

DNA tests will establish whether any of those arrested were related to Adam. Detectives believe there are links between the gang arrested yesterday and a man and a woman arrested in Ireland and Scotland earlier in the inquiry.

Det Chief Insp Will O'Reilly, who heads the Adam case, said: "We are pretty convinced we are into the group of individuals who would have trafficked Adam into the country."

People smuggling - bringing them illegally, but voluntarily, into the the country to make their own way - is big business, attracting organised criminals.

"Trafficking" - the continued exploitation of illegal immigrants in the UK, such as east European teenagers in the sex trade - is also criminally profitable but takes place on a lesser scale.

The trafficking of children is rare, though it features in the West African context.

Scotland Yard said yesterday that it was clear that children had passed through some of the addresses raided. Cdr Andy Baker, head of the Yard's murder squad, said yesterday: "There is very little evidence of people being brought in for the sex trade. But there is some evidence of putting them to work.

"It is not necessarily slavery, but children working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year amounts to some form of slavery."
 
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