Middle aged Kel-Tec P32 weird extraction problem.

[unclenunzie]

I think this one is going back to Kel-Tec for some care, but I thought I'd present the issue here in case anyone has seen this before. P32 running several different lots and varieties of Fiocchi 7.65 mm Browning (32 ACP), has recently begun this weird fail to extract. The result is very close to a type 3 malfunction - double feed. Empty case half extracted with the next round jammed up underneath it:



Over several instances in multiple range sessions the failure cause is clear: during extraction the spent case rim hits the edge of the case mouth of the next fresh round in the mag and prevents full extraction. Bolt thrust is sufficient for the extractor to tear the rim of the spent case as the slide pull backwards, the fresh round is picked up and pushed forward. But of course the chamber is still occupied by the half-extracted case.

This is a picture of the spent case oriented as a shooter would see it if they could. You can see where the bottom of the rim is deformed by the top of the case mouth of the next fresh round:



Picture isn't great but you can plainly see that deformation. The jam at that point is strong enough to stop the case from moving any further backwards so the extractor has no choice but to tear the rim (first picture). There is no ejector mark because the case never extracts far enough due to this stopping action.

The pistol has 735 rounds through it. I've had no ability to force failures by intentionally limp wristing it, two finger grip one hand only. Apart from this extraction issue it's been pretty solid.


Thoughts are most welcome.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I assume this is factory ammo and it occurs with several different brands and lots? I ask because I had a very similar experience with my Astra 400. In my case it was hot handloads... way hot. Fortunately the pistol is built like a tank so wasn't damaged. Also I'm an idiot.

 

[unclenunzie]

Yes, all factory, Fiocchi ball and SJHP rounds. Only things I have done to help it along is replace the extractor parts (extractor/spring/screw), and hand polished the chamber. Didn't hurt, didn't help.

 

[JohnKSa]

Do you have another magazine you can try?

 

[unclenunzie]

I do, and will give it a go (3 extras actually). It's actually on my list of things to try. About all I can think of is angle of presentation of the rounds. I don't have the skill to see any differences among them, except by trying a new one.

 

[unclenunzie]

Small pistol syndrome I'll call it, where just grabbing a J frame for pocket is the solution LOL. Still, I want this P32 to work

 

[JohnKSa]

Maybe the feedlips are getting out of spec and letting the top round in the mag move up high enough to interfere with extraction.

 

[unclenunzie]

Maybe the feedlips are getting out of spec and letting the top round in the mag move up high enough to interfere with extraction.

Possible, but dry testing gives the same effect across all 4 mags I own. I've packed it up for return to Kel-Tec, with notes and pictures. We'll see. I suspect something is out of spec. Could be something as dumb as a worn mag catch, or barrel unlocking too low, dunno.

 

[JohnKSa]

That doesn't sound good...

It will be interesting to see what Kel-Tec says. Although I suspect that if they do anything, they will just send a new one without any explanation.

 

[Jim Watson]

My first Sig P220 would not work with semiwadcutters because the extracted case rim was hitting the bullet shoulder. Same relationship of the empty and the top round.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Does it do the same thing with both the HP and FMJ? Curious if it could be related to the mags being a bit long for the HP's and if it is related to rim lock of the rounds having space to move around some.

I stick with FMJ in the P32 to eliminate possible rim lock from the semi rimmed cases. Also, in that caliber I think the FMJ is going to do about as well as the HP's. I keep the HP for the Seecamp.

There is a spacer made, not sure if by Kel Tec or someone else, to take the extra length out of the mag for HP use.

Please do let us know what Kel Tec says if you send it back.

 

[Steve762us]

Bolt thrust is sufficient for the extractor to tear the rim of the spent case as the slide pull backwards, the fresh round is picked up and pushed forward. But of course the chamber is still occupied by the half-extracted case.

Sounds like the extractor is doing it's job.

I don't have a P32, but on the P3AT, the ejector is a 'loose bit' that can drop out of
the frame, as soon as the slide is removed.

Any chance the ejector is missing or otherwise un-right?

 

[unclenunzie]

Sounds like the extractor is doing it's job.

I don't have a P32, but on the P3AT, the ejector is a 'loose bit' that can drop out of
the frame, as soon as the slide is removed.

Any chance the ejector is missing or otherwise un-right?

nope.

 

[unclenunzie]

Received my P32 back from the factory. They replaced the barrel with an updated version and polished the feed ramp on it. They replaced the mag catch and spring, and fired two mags of unspecified ammo with no malfunctions. I took took it out for a spin yesterday and had the same failure as before in the 3rd mag I ran.

Maybe I am actually limp wristing this tiny, lightweight pistol. Or it has developed a dislike for Fiocchi. I'll try some PMC and since I recently bought a spare NIB P32 I may be able to do some comparisons. I like the darn things, maybe I will become a P32 savant

 

[unclenunzie]

Today I ran a mag of PMC 60 gr JHP (no issues), then a mag of Fiocchi SJHP (extraction failure), then the rest of the box of PMC (no issues) then again another mag of the Fiocchi SJHP (extraction failure).

The Fiocchi extraction failures were almost identical to the ones I originally had - but instead of hanging on the case mouth of next round, the extracting round case rim hangs on the semi-jacket edge of the next round projectile.

The PMC ran like a sewing machine. 50 rounds no failures, I tried two handed, one handed, intentional limp wrist (two fingers). I could not induce a failure. I have several boxes of various fmj, I'll next run some of those.

 

[Jim Watson]

Mine shoots Fiocchi FMJ just fine. I do not ask it to try hollowpoints.

 

[unclenunzie]

Mine shoots Fiocchi FMJ just fine. I do not ask it to try hollowpoints.

I'll bite Please tell me more about your P32 ammo experiences.

 

[Jim Watson]

It needed some "fluff and buff" when new, I sure wasn't going to shoot a pocket pistol 500 times to "break it in."
But once that was done, it has been reliable with FMJ. Fiocchi is a bit higher velocity than US brands, so that is my usual choice, although I have some S&B that I will probably use up the next refamiliarization day.
No other experiences to relate.

 

[unclenunzie]

Today I thought hard on this further, that it's possible the recoil springs were worn enough from using mostly hotter euro ammo. I was thinking slide velocity might be too high, slamming the barrel down onto the magazine stack as extraction took place. So I replaced the recoil springs and guide rod with a new set. I also re-installed my "flyer wire" into the magazine I am testing with since that is how I would run hollow points in this pistol. I ran 4 mags 7+1 of the Fiocchi SJHP which were giving me extraction failures - and it just ran with no problems at all.

The PMC that ran 50 rounds with no problems on the original recoil springs also fits into this logic, as PMC is loaded weaker than Fiocchi.

The recoil springs I pulled have a little more than 800 rounds on them plus whatever manual cycling I've done over the years. This might suggest replacing them on a 500 round interval for me and my P32, if this holds.

We shall see if this improved performance continues or if today was just a good P32 day.

 

[Pistolay]

I also re-installed my "flyer wire" into the magazine I am testing with since that is how I would run hollow points in this pistol.

Do you still have the flyer wire instructions? I'm a new P32 owner, and the links I've been able to find are dead.

 

[unclenunzie]

Do you still have the flyer wire instructions? I'm a new P32 owner, and the links I've been able to find are dead.

This should help http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/flyerwire.htm

Even better: https://web.archive.org/web/20240000000000*/https://ktrange.com/articles/a5/a5.html

 

[berettaprofessor]

Try the attached....at least it has pictures. I've lost the original instructions.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Wait....remembered that I had them PRINTED, not saved on the hard drive. Here's a PDF of the missing original article: sorry, I tried to post as one PDF, but it's "too large"...so here are the individual 8 pages.

 

[Pistolay]

Thank, guys. Much appreciated. Interesting though that the 1bad69.com link is working. It was dead a few days ago.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Fiocchi ammo has cases that are slightly thicker than most. It appears the case is hanging up on the case mouth of the top round in the magazine.
I lightly roll crimp my reloaded .32acp and never see that type of failure to eject.
If you or someone you know reloads.32 has a seater/crimper .32acp die, you could try additional crimping of the ammo.