Midnight Encounter--Analysis

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He works where you live . . .

"Just had an interesting encoutner [sic] with a neighborhood drug dealer/user. " :scrutiny:

So, you will run into one another again.

Do not make friends with him (you don't want to be connected with the drug trade), but do take advantage of any future opportunity to let him know by your actions that you are no threat to him . . . just another neighborhood resident walking the dog. But in my experience from living in a similar neighborhood, it seems to be important to somehow discretely manage that with an air of authority so he knows you are not a target, at least not an easy one. (e.g., "Good evening." [Said with friendly but watchful visage and self-certain posture, to indicate, "I know you're there, I do not feel threatened, and I'm still gonna walk this dog."]) He'll likely look past you to pick on someone else, realizing that you are not out to get him or expose him. He just might suspect that you have good reason to have no fear of him.
 
Very useful thread, Cosmoline.

Thank you for posting and good job with the details and write-up. I don't have anything useful to add, but I got a lot out of reading your story and the comments by others here as usual.

You did good on this one and we'll all do a little better on the next one for it. Glad you and the dog got home safe.
 
You could've used the Gecko45 method, and have your dog lie down and absorb fire while you use him/her for a pistol rest.
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Only after duct taping ceramic plates to the dog.

I've already seen him wandering around today, muttering. My inner cosmoline told me he was no good the first time he tried to engage me, which is why I tried to ignore him and avoid him. He was *not* looking to be friendly, he's completely insane. I've since talked to some other locals and they have also had bad experiences with the guy. He's a nogoodnick wanabe gangsta who drifted in, and is apparently both crazy and dangerous. He's on drugs, but not the right kind. I suspect he will be gone soon. In the mean time I'm using different routes. I had planned on going to a 10mm G20 next spring for bear, but after last night I want something more potent than my backup Beretta or old Nagant in hand this winter. Right now, in fact.
 
Call the cops

I've already seen him wandering around today, muttering.
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Dude, call the police. They are on your side (or should be). Tell them there is a "suspicious character acting aggressively" in your neighborhood and that you have reason to suspect he is selling/using drugs. Call them every time you see him up to no good, or even better, every time you see him. If they catch him with drugs on his person, they'll take him away. If they don't find anything on him, but just hassle him enough, he will eventually leave.

Your dog and gun are to use when the police can't help you, but in this case I think they probably can.
 
Cosmo be very very careful around crazies !!

I know you're perhaps thinking "duh no kidding" but years ago I worked in an area that had more than it's fair share of these kinds of people . After conversations with many of the local cops I have been told these people are way beyond just dangerous .

I have been told stories of skinny little black kids and seemingly helpless old ones that took 6+ officers to restrain , with quotes like "they just don't seem to feel pain" "you can't even begin to reason with them" more times than I can count even when they ARE NOT presently high on drugs or booze .

The 10mm sounds like a good idea and I would be careful even allowing the dog to engage them because if what I understand of the typical attack dog is correct they will often go for an arm , one of these people as unlikely as it seems to normal people could pull out a knife and use it against a dog with their other hand while the dog is attached to one arm .

When you must deal with these people you want to get "off of their radar" as quickly as possible , thats why I advised saying something like it being to cold to have to walk a stupid dog . Say something anything that will make them just go away and ignore you . Telling him you have an trained attack dog not only didn't intimidate him it just put you squarely in his mind as someone that is a possible aggressor . Not something you wanted to do .

I fear that now that you have his attention you will have other encounters with him that will slowly escalate .

I have one suggest that if you should see that I am correct and he is indeed paying attention to you , that might work to get him into a neutral state of mind where your and your dogs presence is concerned . Buy a pack of cigarettes from a store , the next time you are out late at night and begin to have an encounter with him get into the shadows and drop the them and kick then around a few times so it is obvious they were on the ground . Pick them up and yell hey to him , tell him either that you don't smoke or that this isn't your brand if you do , and ask him if he wants them , as you found an unopened pack in the alley that someone must have dropped . If he takes them and thanks you you may have just gotten on his good side and your problems with him may end right there . Should this all play out in the future when he sees you he might inquire if you have found anymore smokes laugh out loud and tell him no bt you'll be sure to give them to him if you do . Don't say anything to make him uncomfortable again .

After that find away to deal with these people in a manner that isn't threatening to them and life will be much better for you .

Good luck , you just may need it !
 
No, I'm following a policy of avoidance. I'm not going to buy the guy smokes or talk to him. That's like feeding the bears, man. The more contact I have with him, the more chance there is of trouble.
 
But he's not doing anything illegal. Nor is there an emergency, so calling the police isn't an option.
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You have indicated that you know he is dealing, and you interpreted his actions as threatening enough to consider drawing your firearm. I'd say that warrants a call to the PD.

We used to have a similar problem in my neighborhood. Gangs of "urban youths" would hang out in the street, play loud music from their car stereos, smoke dope, and deal drugs. They talked about drugs and gangbanging (sometimes heated discussions about shooting people) loud enough to be heard from inside my apartment. A lot of my neighbors are immigrants from India or Asia, and they were terrified to walk down the street until these guys left.

I felt helpless because I couldn't prove they were doing anything wrong. After all, hanging out in the streets TALKING about drugs and shootings isn't against the law, but everybody on the block knew when it was safe to walk the dog and when it wasn't. My wife took a different view, and she called the cops every time she saw these kids in the street.

The cops came, every time. They hassled them, patted them down, sometimes even cuffed them, but never, as far as I could tell, arrested them. For the first few weeks after my wife started to call the police, there were random acts of vandalism in the night: car windows smashed, tires slashed, etc. The police would come out the next morning and take a report, and they would show up again when the kids would assemble in the street. Sometimes they would come even if my wife didn't call. Other people started calling too. Eventually, the police just wore them down, and they quit using our street for their block parties. It is now safe to walk the dog pretty much any time of the day or night.

Again, I encourage you to call your local police department and report this guy as a suspicious character. You know he is not on the up-and-up, and the local PD needs to know about him, too.
 
You have indicated that you know he is dealing, and you interpreted his actions as threatening enough to consider drawing your firearm.
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I suspect he's a drug dealer and user, but I have no admissible proof of it. I've never seen drugs change hands. There's no crime, so I'm not sure why you think I could call 911. Besides, there's no way APD would come out for this. I remember having to try to control a frothing mad Canadian who'd gotten kicked off his airplane as was wandering around the place threatening people. He had no weapon, but was completely out of his mind. APD was called repeatedly, but never came.

Anyway, I've put the word out among the local powers that be and haven't seen him since.
 
I think Cosmoline handled the encounter fairly well. Its very easy to "Monday Morning Quarterback" these things. I don't think he made any glaring mistakes. He warned the hoodlum that the dog was dangerous without actually threatening the guy. He had his hand on his pistol for ready access. He didn't say anything stupid. Cosmo handled the incident with discretion.
 
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+1 for the 10mm. Picking different weight bullets, it is a very flexible gun.
-1 on the weight, though.
 
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First, to the gloves: Look into a nice pair of Thinsulate gloves. Mine are about as thick as a piece of cloth and fit well on my fingers. As a matter of fact I was shooting 3" groups in a snowstorm at 25' wearing them and a pair of coveralls, from a hip holster, with 3" of snow on the ground at an outdoor range when I was doing a qualifying session.

Second, as to the hardware: I advise getting a good small bright flashlight like a Streamlight. A nice bright light is a good deterrant in some cases.

Third: the gun. A beretta .32 is a nice pocket sized mousegun. If you have a coat of any size at all, like a leather coat or a nice nylon parka or something with some size, you can easily conceal a compact version of a good service pistol, like an XD subcompact in 9mm or larger. I personally prefer the Sig P239 because of the shape of the trigger guard, it is roomy and well shaped and is the gun I was shooting 3" out of in the snowstorm wearing gloves. Also a .357 Magnum revolver, a snubby, works well here. I have a ski parka with the right pocket liner modified so that a 4" barrel .357 large frame revolver will fit in the pocket and zip shut.

As far as giving the guy gifts of cigarettes, or making small talk with him, or whatever, that is a losing proposition, odds are you will be considered a soft touch that could be shaken down for tribute at will. Your best bet is to totally ignore him, except for perhaps acknowlegement of existance. If you appear strong, he will probably feel weak, and the best thing to do is make them believe you are stronger than them. If you observe nature the weak constantly want to be thought of as strong or dominant; it's why small dogs will attack bigger ones. The bluster and jivetalk and hand gestures are because he wants you to pay him "respect" and prove to him he deserves it by giving it. Acknowledge his existance, make eye contact or a head nod, then ignore him. When I lived in some areas with some rough types I knew who they were, what they did, and what their schedules generally were; I avoided them if possible, if they were unavoidable I just took my space. When they intruded in an unacceptable way I dealt with them. Usually they left me alone.

My advice is to wear your gloves for your next range session (even if it looks silly) to get used to trigger feel, reloading, etc. if you are worried about cold weather exterior engagements.
 
My finger is on the trigger and hand on the hammer, ready to put it in SA mode on presentation and guarding against AD.
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I'd really avoid placing my finger inside the trigger gaurd until I'm ready to shoot. It's hard to do sometimes, because we naturally want to affirm the trigger is there. However if you did need to draw and shoot the sudden stress of the incident which has been shown to make your hand clinch could easily squeeze off a round.

At that point I'm in the shadows and he's in the street light. I thought about getting behind a nearby pickup, but that would have forced me to advance towards him and possibly escalate the situation. I could have also moved back behind snow berms, but they provide no cover and limit mobility greatly. I had a good view of his hands, so I stayed put.
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Car's reguardless of what the movies show you don't provide very good cover. What are the 2 squares to the right of you in the diagram you provided. What would they provide in the way of cover? Does it provide an escape route?

If I saw iron, my plan was to draw the pistol, cock it into SA and get a bead on him while going into a crouch I'm comfortable shooting from. The dog is trained to stay put unless ordered to attack.
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If you see him pull a gun on you, ther first reaction you should have trained would be to move agressivly to cover or at least off the line of attack while drawing. No need to give him an easy, now immobile target.

If you feel like you have to cock it into SA are you not comfortable hitting with the DA pull?

As it turned out, the guy he was collecting from came up with the cash and his mood improved. He said he wasn't trying to start anything and I responded in kind, but that it's a bad neighborhood. I wait ten minutes after he leaves before returning home, noting where he lives--or at least where he went back to.
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Did he go to a place near by? I know you said you don't think he has any friends. However depending on how close he was to the location he went back into he might very well have had some friends in there. Furthermore they might have had substationally more hardware available to them in there. Like long arms.



Just my $0.02

chris
 
You only made one mistake that I can see: you failed to return his initial challenge with a stout, "F*** off".

What do I mean? His "hello" should have received a response of some kind. Typically the predator type realizes that they have a slight mental edge over most people in the fear department, so they utilize it. People that are fearful don't respond to thugs like that. The only people who do are completely nieve and ignorant people - and there are few of those with 'attack dogs' - and those who are willing to at least posture a willingness to go toe to toe with them.

I know it doesn't make much sense, but that's what I've experienced. Gotten me out of a number of fights and conflicts. Granted, if they're looking for a fight no amount of talk will dissuade them, either.
 
It's sad but true: the thugs rule the streets.

Not sure what I would have done, but I can't fault you. Thugs like that operate almost 100% on insecurity, so almost ANYTHING you do will threaten them, their ego's are as fragile as DDT eggs.

If it were me, I'd have probably left the situation as quickly as possible, just backed away and said nothing. Showing your weapon would have been a baaaaad idea. Defend yourself if need be, but he was just posturing. Let him have his glory and get the hell out of there as quickly as possible. Thugs like that will stop at nothing to feel superior and like they are "hard". So when you mentioned the guard dog, subconsciously he went "well crap, I can't appear weak or inferior, so I better challenge this guy AND his dog now". If you'd have said "Stop, I have a guard Tyranosaurus", he'd have tried to fight your dinosaur. They have to protect their frail ego's no matter the cost.... which to me means "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir". Until you see an IMMEDIATE and IMMINENT threat, there's no point in pushing his buttons. Thugs don't back down, they'd rather die than appear "weak".

With something like that, a local thug, I'd be just as afraid of retaliation if you insulted his "honor" or smudged his Puma's. It was a scary situation, but you did well I think.
 
which to me means "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir". Until you see an IMMEDIATE and IMMINENT threat, there's no point in pushing his buttons. Thugs don't back down, they'd rather die than appear "weak".
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Appearing weak also invites an attack... You have to walk the middle ground as any many things.

Telling him to "**** off" as someone else said would certainly have esclated the situation for no gain.

Chris
 
I know the CW (Cooper Wisdom) is to never touch the trigger, but I've never entirely followed that line of thought for self defense situations. It's a fine idea with cocked and locked SA pistols such as Cooper's beloved 1911's, but I don't carry those. If I'm getting ready to draw I keep my finger on the trigger in DA mode and my thumb on the hammer. I'm used to cocking as I draw. Not standard practice, granted, but it works for me.

The thought of running to cover if he draws is great on paper, but one of the things this brought home to me is how absurd it can be in real life. Esp. with the ground covered in ice, any attempt to bolt for cover would have given him a good target for at least ten seconds. That's a lifetime, literally. I didn't see any choice but to use my time to get him in sights and fire.

.32 ACP with FMJ's penetrates from 13 to 15 inches of BG. Clothes do tend to limit expansion on .32 HP's so I've switched to FMJ's in .32. I'm going to try some wadcutters as well.
 
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Do not make friends with him (you don't want to be connected with the drug trade), but do take advantage of any future opportunity to let him know by your actions that you are no threat to him . . . just another neighborhood resident walking the dog.
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Okay, this mindset just blows me away completely. A thug moves into a neighborhood and everyone should just lay down and bare their throat "see I'm no threat".

WOW

I'd have a neighborhood full of MS-13 punks today if those of us who live there had all taken that attitude.

but back to the initial question of strategy. I would have moved (by your diagram) down/back and to the left until behind that building and then gotten the hell out of there.
 
Cosmoline I do a stagger mag with my 32. Two hollow points then one fmj and one to one afterthat. Again I think you did well. Monday morning quarterbacking and the safety experts on SD matters are almost laughable. I on occasion would cock my GP with safety off and held it against my thigh when I thought a shootout was for sure. If you have your hand on a weapon and intend to pull it your finger is safety enough. It may be the only edge you get and unless you experience such a scenereo its hard to explain to others. Most times you have to trust your instincts. Every situation is different. Take care. Try not to freeze to death this winter:) .

Jim
 
The thought of running to cover if he draws is great on paper, but one of the things this brought home to me is how absurd it can be in real life. Esp. with the ground covered in ice, any attempt to bolt for cover would have given him a good target for at least ten seconds. That's a lifetime, literally. I didn't see any choice but to use my time to get him in sights and fire.
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Why do you have to wait until he draws to move to cover? If cover is ten feet away and you start moving there why he is still posturing. You're ahead of the curve and his OODA loop.
 
I sold that one to guy a Glock 23, then sold the G23 in expectation of getting a G20 for next spring. The SP is nice, but a tad too heavy for pocket carry. I just put some money down on a beat up old Model 36 with a perfect trigger and good lockup. The hammer has been half bobbed already so I may complete the job guilt-free. My many years of experimentation have lead me to conclude that the old 36 is just about perfect for pocket carry.
 
I call the police when

I even suspect drug dealing and I complain to the landlord.
It seems to work plus you have a paper trail (or a phone trail)
if you do have to shoot in self defense.

Plus the more time the cops spend chasing down lowlifes the less time they have to give me speeding tickets!:D
 
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