And let's hope millions more join them!
Glock Glockler
The second issue is the Federal Reserve notes that we use to conduct business. So long as we use their money they have a means to tax us on it. I wonder how they would tax us if we bartered in conducting business and didnt have any cash to report to anyone with. Doing that on a large scale will be rather difficult, so it might be a beter option to use some type gold or silver coinage to conduct business. Without Federal Reserve notes the govt/bank axis would be ineffective at using the income tax to strip us of our rightful property.
Quite. "Inflation, the invisible tax." I think it's cute how W4rma and company always talk about indexing everything and their dog to inflation. Wouldn't that be equivalent to... not having inflation? Imagine that. Easy answer to Glock Glocker's desire:
www.e-gold.com
Ignored in this conversation (mostly) has been discussion on the motivations of different bodies of people.
From his remarks, jdseven1, is probably retired.
When I was working and making money from my investments I was glad to pay taxes. That meant I was making money. Now that I am retired I still pay some taxes but if I hit the lottery I will be glad to pay the taxes. We still pay taxes Fuel,Phone,property and sales tax but we pay these taxes even if we dont make any money. Has anyone figured out what the percentage of these taxes are???
Older people want to pay taxes on incomes, younger people want taxes on sales. Utlimately, everyone thinks *someone else* should pay a greater share of the burden. I can make a Utilitarian case to justify the biggest nonsense you ever heard of (even w4arma's socialism), and you'll believe it if it benefits you. Special interests are indeed the bane of government, but campaign finance reform is not the solution.
The solution is to erect a "wall of separation" between business and government, such as is established in legal tradition between church and state. This wall actually stood rather erect (with a big hole made for railroads), until Roosevelt (the first). Real simple situation: if government is not allowed to control business in manners which businesses to not agree to (as via contracts), then businesses have NO motivation to bribe or lobby government. Imagine the billions of dollars spent on lobbying being spent elsewhere.
7.62FullMetalJacket has made a minor error:
Businesses and people must remain in the US to retain citizenship and the benfits of this society.
I just got done talking with a very leftist friend of mine (she'd get along great with w4rma) who is in New Zealand (which has horribly restrictive immigration laws, as does much of Europe), and still a US citizen and still voting (against Bush).
Diggler's suggestion will work, and precisely because it *will* work, the government will NEVER do it.
You wanna see a LOT of people change their minds about taxes?? Outlaw employer withholding of taxes. Let everyone take home their gross taxes. Then, make everyone write a check to....
This is also the reason corporate taxes exist (w4rma's "anti-corporate" feelings notwithstanding), since they are invisible, the government likes them. Like sales taxes, discussed above, it's hard to keep track of.
The flat tax idea has a lot to recommend it, notably the money saved by avoiding tax preparers, and even if you prepare it itself, time is money, the average amount of time spent preparing it was about 28hours, that's a whole day (or almost two counting sleep) of your 365 days that's another .3% the governent took right off the top, no deductions.
Here's another idea: repeal the 16th amendment, thereby making the state's responsible for collecting, and paying the taxes to the federal government. The rich states, seeing their dollars go to other states, will protest this. Further, it offers the choice of different tax collection systems. Some states (like Massachuesetts, PRK) can experiment with whatever socialist ideas they want, and to their heart's content. When capital RUNS (and capital always does) these states will see the error of their ways. Further, it kills the power of government to enforce their absurd .08% DUI/DWI nonsense, as well as removing the FEDERAL government from education.
Of course, the "problem" of capital's fluidity, it's ability to run away from repressive states, is something the Socialists are working EXTRA hard at. In the EU they've bullied and bloodied the Irish for daring to engage in "tax competition" with other EU states, who are complaining that their citizens are fleeing the over-taxed states for the free Ireland. Expect this "problem" to be solved within the next few years. Ideally, the Socialists want this system applied on a global basis, so wherever you go, they can steal your money for their wonderful and ingenius social programs. Of course they do this all with your consent, sure they use sleight of hand with their BS Keynsian Economics (Chicago has absolutely smacked Keynes and his misguided claptrap upside the head), but *you* still take their checks.
In the end, Ian's position is correct, we're immoral to take a dime from the government, and immoral to pay for it. Of course I also disagree with many in the "unsubscribe from the .gov" movement, in that I feel that it is my duty to put a stop to it by fomenting a tax-payer revolt. The problem with this matter is that this country is too big. If this were a city, or a town with excessive taxes, it'd take me a month, tops. No, motivating large numbers of people requires a lot more, it's intentionally difficult, they don't want us to.
Still, "our" side does little to help the cause by attacking person's who are taking handouts, or who are working for the government. If anyone on this board is suffering economically, feel free to e-mail me, I've not met a person yet who can't save a few bucks here or there (and often a few thousand) by rearranging a few things. In the case of the poor, they'd all be much better off without governent, because, as I've discussed, the costs of goods are increased due to the taxes corporations pay (such taxes as paid by corporations that do pay), sales taxes, property taxes, inflation, and regulatory nonsense.
The solution is sympathy, many Americans, raised inside of the public school system are deathly afraid of facing the real world, it's a dark scary place filled with risk. I've a few friends that are so terrified they're hiding in grad school, wasting away more dollars. Most Americans so conditioned seek "jobs" as though it belongs to them by right. They want a "career" stability and security. Cowards the lot of them, most go into civil service which offers many "jobs" though little output. If these persons were forced to get real jobs, they'd most likely fail quite quickly, they cannot be turned out so fast, they'll revolt. We need to do it slowly, and gently retrain them (at public expense, though I wish there were another way), into new jobs (which will be "created" through a reduction in regulation and taxes). Sadly the days when men sought "work" as opposed to "jobs" are long since gone, fear and survival are our driving emotions, not desire for achievement.
So to my beleaguered taxpayers, to whom I owe the few legitimate government functions which exist to protect my few remaining rights, I offer a very hearty thank you. I wish you success in reducing your burden, and thereby reducing the slavery that binds us all.
-Morgan
