Milsurp rifles & Recoil

[JustinL]

I recently purchased a very nice Canadian Lee Enfield #4. I had wanted one for a while but hesitated as I am a wuss when it comes to recoil. After biting the bullet I took it to the range and put 20 rounds of 150gr Prvi Partizan ammo through it and was surprised to feel managable recoil.

This got me to thinking: what other milsurp rifles recoil on par with the above combination of rifle & ammo? If I liked this rifle, what others do you think I would enjoy?

 

[Coal Dragger]

A Swiss K31 would be a good bet. They have great triggers, are superbly accurate, and recoil is quite manageable.

 

[LoonWulf]

I believe you can get down loaded ammo for pretty much all the major rounds that milsurps fire. I know ive seen rem managed recoil in .308 and 06, and 8mm mauser factory ammo is usually loaded pretty lite. The only one i can think of that isnt a relative pussy cat is the Nagant. I dont belive there are any light 7.62x54r rounds available, and the m44 i shot kicked pretty much like a factory .308 with a hard plate. The larger 91s or others probobly wouldnt be as bad......or you could start reloading and pretty much anything could be loaded up or down to suite your taste.

 

[Sunray]

Check the headspace and slug the barrel. Thousands of No. 4's have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC. Lee-Enfields barrels can measure between .311" and .315" and still be considered to be ok. Over .315", the barrel is shot out. Most factory ammo uses .311" or .312" bullets.
"...managable recoil..." The narrow butt stock on Lee-Enfields pounds me with any ammo. Still shot 'Expert' with a No. 4 using poor issue ammo. Goes away with a jacket. The 1944 vintage ammo we got, at one time, was far better than the IVI we got later. Oh, and there are several bayonets(9, as I recall) for a No. 4 Rifle. Go here for good info on the rifle and its accessories.
http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/main.htm
And here. http://www.303british.com/
"...what others..." All of 'em. As daft as it sounds. Milsurp battle rifles are highly addictive. You get to play with a wee bit of history.
Every battle rifle has its own characteristics and quirks, but they're all far more interesting to shoot than any commercial hunting rifle(no slick accessories for any commercial hunting rifle.) It's about shooting the rifle, not the cartridge. Mind you, they're not exactly inexpensive to shoot, unless you're reloading. Not much milsurp left for any of 'em any more.
An M1 Rifle is virtually felt recoil free due to the gas operation. No battle rifle I've ever fired is quite like an M1. There's just something about 'em that no other rifle has.
Jump the hoops, shoot the matches and look at the CMP for an M1. Start here. http://www.thecmp.org/eligibility.htm
Have a 1903A4 Springfield that's comfortable to shoot too. Nice wide butt stock. The CMP might get some 1903s/A3's next year.
Mausers come in hordes of variants. Swedish M96 Mausers, in 6.5 x 55, are known to be very accurate and comfortable to shoot. The 6.5 is a great all 'round hunting cartridge too.
Mosin-Nagants have several variations too. They're usually very inexpensive. Well under $200 for one in decent condition. The M44 carbines have considerable recoil and muzzle blast though.
Go here and rummage around. Good info on a whole bunch of milsurps. http://www.surplusrifle.com/index.asp

 

[duns]

Oh, come on,recoil is one of the fun aspects of a gun! (I'm serious)

 

[Snowdog]

I've long been fan of the Enfield. The two I have are a joy and a half to shoot.

If recoil is a primary concern, there are other military surplus rifles out there that are also fun at the range. Just about any military rifle in 6.5 applies, such as a 6.5x52 Carcano, 6.5x50 Arisaka and 6.5x55 Swede.

My favorite military rifle to shoot? The M1 Carbine (talk about light recoil ).

 

[Tim the student]

Never fired an Enfield, but I think Garands are quite managable to shoot.

Carbines are like shooting .22's.

 

[Ignition Override]

Congrats on your #4!
Go shoot about twenty rds. in a LE "Jungle Carbine" (no recoil pad) or 8mm Mauser and then compare the #4.

My #4's bore is in pretty good condition but certainly not mint.
For what it is worth, a buddy used mine (on a rest) to hit a gong at 300 yards today, three times out of about a dozen rds. with only iron sights. He had almost never touched any LEs before, and we had some crosswind component from the northeast.
Justin- by the way, forget about the "Jungle Carbines". They are just toy guns, not a "man's rifle", like an AR-15.

 

[Cosmoline]

The recoil of most mil-surps gets exaggerated because folks aren't used to steel buttplates. Apart from a few that really do bang you around (Iranian carbine, M95 straight pull) they're on par with a .30'06 out of a full size hunting rifle.

 

[jeeper1]

The only one i can think of that isnt a relative pussy cat is the Nagant. I dont belive there are any light 7.62x54r rounds available,

There used to be a light recoil training round available about 6 years ago. I still have 4 cases of it. If I remember right the bullet was a short semi rounded hollow bullet that weighed 46 grains and was painted white on the bullet tip.
I really must clean the cosmoline off my M44 so I can shoot it someday.

 

[FlyinBryan]

the garand has very smooth feeling recoil. not unpleasant in the least, and much tamer than an '06 bolt rifle.

 

[10-96]

I guess this is sorta related to the OP- Have you been mostly shooting from a bench/bags/rest? That's where I've always noticed the most recoil. Once I do the bench thing to figger out where it's hitting, I find that one of the unsupported positions makes for a whole lot more enjoyment/challenge. I'm not by any means knocking those that only shoot from a bench. Some years ago, I got into benchrest and p-doggin and pretty much forgot all about the fun and challenge of standing, kneeling/sitting, and prone.

 

[Dr.Rob]

The weight of most milsurps tames the recoil considerably compared to the average plastic stocked sporter. The Garand's action soaks up a a considerable amount of force compared to a 1903a3 of the same era.

Can't handle the steel? Slip a rubber recoil pad over it or wear a PAST recoil shield under your coat. You'll get used to it the more you shoot. I positively could not stand the recoil of a sporterized .303 Enfield when I was a kid. As an adult I regularly shoot hundreds of rounds through an 8mm Mauser with a steel butt and no padding at all. Couldn't do that with my hunting rifle, it weighs 3 or 4pounds less than that old Mauser. Recoil is a subjective thing. Proper hold, the right ammo and practice can really tame it down.

 

[JustinL]

Thanks for the replies.

I got spooked at a young age and kind of stayed away from centerfire rifles larger than a .223. When I was 16 (and weighed maybe 150 lbs) I tried a Remington 7600 in .30-'06; I shot it 16 times before I had to put it down in pain. I had a bruised shoulder for two weeks.

 

[jpwilly]

I have shot most of the WWII era battle rifles. The Garand is the Cadillac recoil and power wise! The Lee Enfield is more of a push than a sharp recoil. IMO the 1903 hit's the hardest, the 98K and Mosin Nagants are right in there too. Get a slip on recoil pad and the sharpness and bruising should go away. I shot my M1 Rifle, Lee Enfiled, K31, and 1903 last weekend standing and from the bench....a total of 100rnds and no bruising (a little sore though).

 

[Deputy25]

My K98s jump pretty good with the surplus Turk ball ammo I've been shooting in them...pretty good fireball at the muzzle as well. Accuracy isn't all that impressive, but it holds minute-of-combat.

 

[iamkris]

The other thing you can do is use proper form. Very few of us actually have learned to really hold a rifle the proper way.

• The shooting bench is probably the worst place to learn how a rifle recoils...your body is in a terrible position to handle it
• Make sure you are putting the butt in the "pocket" of your shoulder. Lay your opposite hand on your upper chest between your neck and shoulder and raise your arm. You can feel the pocket form...that's where the butt should be. Of the people I teach, too many of them place the butt out on the shoulder itself...OUCH
• Take a firm grip on the wrist (not a stranglehold) and put a little pressure pulling back into your shoulder...not too much, not too little.
• Lean slightly into the rifle if shooting offhand...let your body roll with the recoil and don't fight it. It won't hurt you.

 

[Cosmoline]

Speaking of which, this video is a great refresher course, copyright free:

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1

 

[Float Pilot]

Swede /38 and m/96 Mausers are light recoiling and super accurate.

 

[52grain]

I fired 40 rounds from my Garand this afternoon (from a bench, trying to sight it in). Didn't even notice it. If I had fired 40 rounds off a bench from my .308 bolt gun, my shoulder wouldn't have felt right until Thursday or Friday at that earliest and I definitely would have had a bruise on my collarbone.

Admittedly, the guy in the next stall over thought that I must have been tearing myself to pieces. (Just because the recoil is soft, doesn't mean that the report isn't.)

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I got spooked at a young age and kind of stayed away from centerfire rifles larger than a .223. When I was 16 (and weighed maybe 150 lbs) I tried a Remington 7600 in .30-'06; I shot it 16 times before I had to put it down in pain. I had a bruised shoulder for two weeks.

Justin do not feel bad bud. I got rid of a 760 in 30.06 because it kicked like a pissed off mule and I am about twice your size and far from recoil shy. I have a 300 win mag that doesn't kick as hard as that thing did. I sported a .303 Brit #4 Mark II and it does have a bit of a kick at the bench but not really too bad. Put yourself a slip on Limbsaver Pad on it and shoot away. Those things are a God Send for the recoil shy.

 

[crazyivan]

Just put a slip-on recoil pad on it.
Put a Winchester limb-saver on my Mosin Nagant, makes it feel like a semi-auto in the butt kick and the muzzle jump.
Can shoot it all day with no pain!

 

[Hatterasguy]

Recoil shouldn't be that much of a problem, unless you have medical issues you should be able to manage it. Long before the AR, rifles like this where it, and they were shot a lot. If our grandfathers could hack it we should be able to as well. Guys were shooting the AQT with 1903's and Garand's.

First don't shoot bench, shoot standing or sitting, I recommend standing. Next get a proper sling for the rifle and use it, also make sure the butt of the rifle is put firmly into your shoulder, spread your feet for support, hold your trigger arms elbow out like a chicken wing, and make sure not to drag wood when squeezing the trigger. Now relax and adjust your body until your natural point of aim is on the target, when doing it right the rifle should move up in down with your breathing. Wait until your natural pause on the exhale and fire. After you fire work the bolt, the proper way to run a bolt gun is not to break your stance when working it. Enfields are very good in this regard. Guys that take the rifle off their shoulder, work the bolt and re shoulder are not doing it right.

Look like this, the sling and your body will absorb the recoil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x3lOZ4yX6Y&feature=related
This is the proper way to load and fire a bolt action rifle, notice his head doesn't move and he keeps the rifle on target.

 

[Gottahaveone]

and the m44 i shot kicked pretty much like a factory .308 with a hard plate. The larger 91s or others probobly wouldnt be as bad......

Actually, the M44 with the permanently attached bayonet weight's a few ounces *more* then the 91/30 without the bayonet attached (as most people shoot it). I find it to be just about equal in the recoil department. Now, when you consider the M38 without a provision for a bayonet, that's a whole 'nother ball game. That short, light carbine will kick the snot out of you if you let it.

As others have said the key is in proper form. And it doesn't hurt to have a small masochistic streak

Learn to enjoy the recoil as part of the experience. There is something about pulling an old battle rifle tight into the shoulder and hearing that booming report and feeling that kick that just makes me get all tingly inside.

FWIW, I'd rather shoot any milsurp I own rather than my 870 with that thin Speedfeed butstock. I shoot it enough to stay proficient, but it's a CHORE, not an enjoyment....

 

[DougW]

I have alwars found that shooting my Enfields anywhere BUT the bench reduces the felt recoil. That is especially true of my #5mk1's. But then, I reload with a somewhat reduced load that gives the best accuracy out to 200 yards, so I don't have an issue with recoil myself.