Minnesota soldier shipped AK-47s home!!

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I guess the overall point is, if you don't like the law, work to change it. Simply saying you don't like a law does not mean that you should be able to break it without consequence. If we carry that thought to an extreme, one should be able to commit murder without penalty. Before you say that doing so infringes on the rights of another, remember that preventing me from doing so is still restricting my "rights" -- you simply have chosen a different limit. I think we are all reasonable enough to say that we DO want laws, and that anarchy is not desirable. I have taught lessons in school dealing with injustices commited in the U.S. The take-home lesson I always leave with the students is that we don't always agree with laws or government actions, but here in America, we have greater power to effect change than just about anywhere else in the world. If we are that dissatisfied with our laws, we must work to change them. If one is unwilling to work for change -- QUIT COMPLAINING!
 
The best thing that could possibly happen to this country is if 100,000 soldiers and Marines tried to smuggle AK-47s back to the United States. I don't think there would be anyone in the United States who would support prosecuting them other than the Moveondotorg crowd.
 
Actually, Preacherman, the District Court in Miller ruled that the tax did infringe on the RKBA as protected by the 2A. SCOTUS reversed the ruling (and the events leading up to the ruling would today be unheard of-late notification of Miller's attorney, and all messages going either by post or telegram, with the end result that Miller's attorney was unable to appear or even file any findings of fact) because they were presented with nothing that showed them that short-barrelled shotguns were of any use to a "well regulated militia." Had such evidence been presented (I assume as part of written, pre-argument briefs), the language of the decision would seem to indicate that they would have ruled the other way.

So the tax does constitute an infringement, at least where militia weapons are concerned.

Tax the crud out of those dang hunting rifles, and leave my MGs alone!
 
from the beginning of recorded history up until about 100 years ago, countries went to war with soldiers who were only in it for the plunder.

if it's worked in the past, why change it?
 
Actually, Preacherman, the District Court in Miller ruled that the tax did infringe on the RKBA as protected by the 2A. SCOTUS reversed the ruling (and the events leading up to the ruling would today be unheard of-late notification of Miller's attorney, and all messages going either by post or telegram, with the end result that Miller's attorney was unable to appear or even file any findings of fact) because they were presented with nothing that showed them that short-barrelled shotguns were of any use to a "well regulated militia." Had such evidence been presented (I assume as part of written, pre-argument briefs), the language of the decision would seem to indicate that they would have ruled the other way.

So the tax does constitute an infringement, at least where militia weapons are concerned.

Tax the crud out of those dang hunting rifles, and leave my MGs alone!

Again - <sigh>

Langenator, ol' buddy, I have news for thee. If the Supreme Court reverses the judgement of a lower court, it means that the lower court's judgement is set aside. It no longer applies. It's no longer a legal and binding ruling. Therefore, to say that "the tax does constitute an infringement" is completely untrue - a lower court tried to find this, but was overruled. End of story.

:banghead:
 
Now that is dumb

One more case of cranial/anal extraction needed.

Doc2005
 
The guy screwed up. Our troops are emphatically warned against bringing back AKs and other souveniers so he's in trouble with the Army. Meanwhile back in the States this guy imprted and was in posession of a couple machine guns without the proper credentials and that is a crime.

You can quote the 2nd Amnedment all you want but the fact is Federal and State government has been "regulating" gun ownership for decades and it has been upheld as Constututional by the Supreme Court.

Which brings me to the next point, and it’s a big one. From Kim Du Toit:

We gun owners need to stop acting like a bunch of paranoid morons.

Here are a couple of newsflashes:

The United Nations isn’t going to take over this country. Forget all those wet dreams about shooting down blue-painted helicopters or taking aim at blue-helmeted stormtroopers. The UN can’t even maintain order in West Africa; how much chance would they have in Alabama?

The United States isn’t going to be invaded: not by the Russians, not by the Chinese, and not by the Cubans either. There is not a single country or entity in this world which can even contemplate a full-scale invasion. Not gonna happen: the movie Red Dawn was just a movie, not the Prophecies of Nostradamus.

We’re not going to start shooting BATFE agents, either. That’s not going to work, so quit your childish dreams of 2A martyrdom. Yes, they act like total pricks a lot of the time; but the way to eliminate this horrible bunch of goons is by legislation, not by gunning them down as they bust down your front door.

Read the whole essay here
 
ryoushi said:
We gun owners need to stop acting like a bunch of paranoid morons.

We’re not going to start shooting BATFE agents, either. That’s not going to work, so quit your childish dreams of 2A martyrdom. Yes, they act like total pricks a lot of the time; but the way to eliminate this horrible bunch of goons is by legislation, not by gunning them down as they bust down your front door.

Willing to disagree. What if "legislative" process gets to the point of "no turning back" and all guns become banned or further restricted...

Reminds me of Hitler and fascist germany. He disarmed the whole nation and then initiated WW2.

What makes you think that a liberal president won't ban and confiscate all "assault" weapons one morning? Hey, it's been done before (not in this country, but assault weapon ban was a step towards full ban), but it has been done in other countries...

Paranoid? Hardly.
Tactical, armed and ready? You bet.

Don't take preparedness for weakness.
 
Langenator said:
Actually, Preacherman, the District Court in Miller ruled that the tax did infringe on the RKBA as protected by the 2A. SCOTUS reversed the ruling (and the events leading up to the ruling would today be unheard of-late notification of Miller's attorney, and all messages going either by post or telegram, with the end result that Miller's attorney was unable to appear or even file any findings of fact) because they were presented with nothing that showed them that short-barrelled shotguns were of any use to a "well regulated militia." Had such evidence been presented (I assume as part of written, pre-argument briefs), the language of the decision would seem to indicate that they would have ruled the other way.

So the tax does constitute an infringement, at least where militia weapons are concerned.

Tax the crud out of those dang hunting rifles, and leave my MGs alone!

So... they ruled against Miller because his attorney didn't show up because they didn't tell him to.

What the !!!!? :cuss:

Methinks there's grounds for an appeal on grounds of due process.


Preacherman said:
The Constitution and Bill of Rights DO NOT prevent the regulation of these rights. This has been the consistent position of the US Courts since the beginning of the Republic, and remains so today.

The right to keep and bear arms may be regulated. So long as the regulation is not so severe as to negate the right, it will pass Constitutional and judicial muster. Period. No question, no doubt, no problem.

The real question is at what point does regulation negate a right?

When you have to ask permission of those you fear to have one? Couldn't that be self-incrimination?

When you can own it but not carry it? After all, it doesn't do you much good locked up at home when you're being mugged.

Just things to think about.
 
No, Miller's attorney was told of the hearing...just not in what today would be considered a timely matter. IIRC, the time between when SCOTUS sent him notice that they had decided to hear the case and the scheduled date for arguments was three weeks or less. (Keep in mind that while air travel existed, it wasn't really common back then.) He asked for an extension, they said no, and he said there was no way he could do it. Apparently, this was once pretty normal for cases at the end of a term.

Of course, by this time, Miller himself was in prison for something else, and his co-defendant was dead.

Upon this screwed up case rests pretty much all of our gun laws.
 
I have a grim feeling we are too worried about niceties to ever win another war. Sherman TOLD us what to do, dammit.
 
I hate stupid laws.

The one thing I hate more than stupid laws, is stupid laws that are unenforced (showing that they are not necvessary, and should be striken from the books) or stupid laws that are selectively enforced (meaning there is favoritism going on).

Why is he more eligible to bring back an AK from Iraq, than if I went somewhere and bought one? My guess is that if I, a non-military guy, tried to bring back an AK or RPG from Cambodia, or Vietnam, or China, or anywhere else I could get one, and got caught, nowhere near as much fuss would be made.

And honestly? I'd bring back the reciever, and buy a parts kit. Lot less people know what the reciever is, than the whole gun.
 
If you think this guy is the only one who shipped things home, then you are sorely mistaken.

Lots of stuff has come home. LOTS. I have seen some pretty cool things.

On another War, my Uncle was a sound engineer, he did sound recordings all over northern europe in cooperation with motion picture teams who recorded alot of that footage you see of US soldiers fighting in WWII. The old equipment did not record sound along with the film and he had to capture the sound that was later sync'ed to the film. Altho they had development capabilities with them, most of the film got shipped to philadelphia or new york and was developed there. The group had film cans that they would braze together and then open up on the inside to make a large single case, they aslo had boxes that the film cans fit into. These cases and cans were often filled up and shiped home with booty. Lugars, P-38's, SS stuff, daggers, medals, as well as other bits and then there was a lot of stuff captured late in the war that was shocking, He was in a team that filmed the capture of a couple of german castles and later POW camps and concentration camps. In one of the castles, his unit came across rooms full of captured booty, French, Norwegian, Danish, and stuff from the BeNeLux countries. Polish stuff too. Artwork, jewelry, coins, icons, and gems. A lot of that stuff came home through those film cases. I have 2 Lugers, and a Iron Cross given to me by him, He had lots more but my moron cousin gave them away when my uncle died, I was little when i saw a box of gemstones, that was going to be sold to pay for a new business venture, I saw a blue saphire and commented on how cool it looked and when I got married, my wife got that as a wedding present.
My grandfather was steamfitter in the boston Navy yard during WWII, he commented once that late in the war, they had gotten a ship into the harbor that was all shot up, and when they started to work on it, they had found a lot of stuff hidden in the boiler spaces, where the sailors had stuffed stuff from Italy into places to bring home, but after the ship was hit, the navy crew was pulled off and a tranfer crew was put on to bring the can home.

I was told that several of the air guard groups serving in Iraq had been routinely sending care packages home, that is how the stuff i saw made it home. No Customs, and the planes manifest is filled out by the same guy who loads it.
 
HankB said:
Well, their Commander-In-Chief has Saddam's sidearm as a souvenir, and he wasn't even over there except for a short visit.

I guess it's OK to make an exception for the King. :rolleyes:


I was there nearly a whole year and all I got was a lousy t-shirt......
 
Not a problem. The man was simply exercising a liberty guaranteed by the US Constitution, i.e., to keep and bear arms. Not only that, but it was precisely this type of arm that the framers of the Second Amendment had in mind, i.e., those particularly suited for militia service. They cannot prosecute him on any sort of Federal charge because the Federal Government is prohibited from infringing on his right to keep and bear arms, so all Federal laws which have that result are null and void, of no effect, and rightly ignored by all good citizens of our great nation. So relax, folks, this is America, the land of the free and the home of the brave. The Federal Government must obey the US Constitution here (This is not the Soviet Union, after all). We are not ruled by men here, but by laws, and the Constitution is the highest law in the land. No worries. Someone in our great government will soon realize his error, apologize to the man, and probably offer him a ride home with his nice new AK 47 rifles.
 
The Constitution and Bill of Rights DO NOT prevent the regulation of these rights.
Perhaps, so long as the regulation is somehow authorized by the US Constitution, and the net effect of that regulation does not constitute an infringement on the exercise of the right. But any Federal regulation which has the net effect of hampering (i.e., infringing upon) the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms, any arms, at any time, in any place, is flatly prohibited by both the Second and the Tenth Amendments, and therefore null and void, and of no effect, rightly to be ignored.
 
Preacherman said:
Again - <sigh>

Langenator, ol' buddy, I have news for thee. If the Supreme Court reverses the judgement of a lower court, it means that the lower court's judgement is set aside. It no longer applies. It's no longer a legal and binding ruling. Therefore, to say that "the tax does constitute an infringement" is completely untrue - a lower court tried to find this, but was overruled. End of story.

:banghead:
Preacherman, the SCOTUS may be authorized to interpret the constitution, but that doesn't mean that they are infallible. If they ruled that black was white, would that make it objectively true? It is objectively the case that a tax on the exercise of a right is an infringement on the exercise of that right. The proof? Well, if you exercise the right without first paying the tax, they will come and arrest you. I'd say that being arrested for the exercise of a right is an infringement on a right. Wouldn't you? You and I both know that the Supreme Court determined otherwise only as a convenience for the Federal Government. It had little, if anything, to do with reality. You do know that, right? Please tell me you know that.
 
Hawkeye, regrettably (because on a personal level I agree with you) you're only offering your own interpretation of what the Constitution means, and its binding authority on the US Government. Unfortunately, the US courts don't agree with you. If you were to try to act on your understanding of the Second and other Amendments, you would find yourself convicted of a crime, and spend time in jail (and lose your other civil rights too).

We're stuck with the present situation, whether we like it or not, unless and until we can elect representatives who will pass legislation that restores the unmistakeable intent of the Founding Fathers w.r.t. the RKBA. If we don't succeed in doing this, we'll be stuck with (at best) the present system, or (shudder! :eek: ) an even worse set of laws, if opponents of the RKBA manage to elect representatives who will implement their views.

I agree that SCOTUS is not infallible, but they are authoritative... and right now, they've exercised their authority in ruling against your interpretation of the Constitution. To change that, we must change the law. To change the law, we must change our representatives (either the attitudes of existing representatives, or the election of new ones). To do this, we need to mobilize our resources, get our viewpoint out there, and convince the majority of voters that we have a point worthy of their support. Doing this in the face of mass opposition from the Loony Left, the mainstream news media, and many of our current Congresscritters, is going to take a monumental effort - one that I don't think has much chance of success.

Sorry to be gloomy, but I'm a realist.
 
Preacherman said:
Hawkeye, regrettably (because on a personal level I agree with you) you're only offering your own interpretation of what the Constitution means, and its binding authority on the US Government.
I am only recognizing that words have meaning.
Unfortunately, the US courts don't agree with you.
No, actually I am asserting that they do agree with me, but disingenuously pronounce, in effect, that black is white, because they wish to provide a certain degree of perceived legitimacy to the extraconstitutional activities of the Federal Government.
If you were to try to act on your understanding of the Second and other Amendments, you would find yourself convicted of a crime, and spend time in jail (and lose your other civil rights too).
You are quite right. I would be convicted of a "crime," which is no crime at all, and spend time in jail. As for my civil rights, they will not be lost, but rather violated; an important distinction.
We're stuck with the present situation, whether we like it or not, unless and until we can elect representatives who will pass legislation that restores the unmistakeable intent of the Founding Fathers w.r.t. the RKBA. If we don't succeed in doing this, we'll be stuck with (at best) the present system, or (shudder! :eek: ) an even worse set of laws, if opponents of the RKBA manage to elect representatives who will implement their views.
Agreed.
I agree that SCOTUS is not infallible, but they are authoritative...
They are authorized only to uphold the Constitution. When they use their delegated powers to frustrate the intent of the Constitution, they are not using authority, but illegitimate power; another important distinction.
and right now, they've exercised their authority in ruling against your interpretation of the Constitution.
As I said, they are exercising delegated powers illegitimately, not authority. Their authority is loaned to them by the American people for the purpose of upholding the manifest intent of the US Constitution, not to thwart that intent.
To change that, we must change the law.
The highest law of the land already prohibits the infringement, by the Federal Government, of the right to keep and bear arms. If they will violate that law, what law will restrain them?
To change the law, we must change our representatives (either the attitudes of existing representatives, or the election of new ones).
We must exchange our representatives for those who would uphold the law that already exists. No new law is required.
To do this, we need to mobilize our resources, get our viewpoint out there, and convince the majority of voters that we have a point worthy of their support. Doing this in the face of mass opposition from the Loony Left, the mainstream news media, and many of our current Congresscritters, is going to take a monumental effort - one that I don't think has much chance of success.
Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment of our chances.
Sorry to be gloomy, but I'm a realist.
I am a realist too. I prefer, however, to distinguish between de facto law and de jure law. That is probably what confused you about what I've written. When I speak of the law, you can assume that I am only speaking of de jure law, unless I specify otherwise. I am of the opinion that it is a sloppy use of the English language to refer to all dictates of Federal officials simply as the law, especially when most of it has no real force in law at all, although it does have quite a bit of another kind of force behind it, i.e., the point of a gun.

PS

De Facto: A term meaning "in actual fact," regardless of legal or normative standards, and refers to an action or a state of affairs, which for all practical purposes, must be accepted, but which has no formal legal basis.

De Jure: A thing done according to law; by right; legitimate.
 
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