Miranda – You probably don’t know what you’re talking about!

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The states burden was only to inform you of those rights only.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The state's burden is to protect your rights!!! ALL of your rights!! At ALL TIMES!! And that responsibility DOES NOT END with the reading of the Miranda Warning!!

Hence, the reading of the Miranda Warning is NOT a green light for the police to try to trick, or coerce, or whatever, a statement. Their behavior should be the same REGARDLESS of the warning, and that behavior should be geared towards protecting our rights.
 
Hows that saying go from Forrest Gump?

Stupid is as stupid does? You think I or the state has an obligation to protect you from your own stupidity after you have been WARNED not to talk and that what you say will be used against you?

Think again, thats never going to happen. Why is it some people believe that the state has some obligation to protect you from your own stupidity after being warned?

That would be like saying "Don't touch that stove, it will burn you". Then when the idiot touches the stove, it's my fault as I did nothing except warn him of the consequences.

Ya, right

Brownie
 
Stupid is as stupid does? You think I or the state has an obligation to protect you from your own stupidity after you have been WARNED not to talk and that what you say will be used against you?
:rolleyes:
Forget it. I now see it's pointless to go on.
 
Who's Job is it anyway?

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
We instituted government to secure our rights. Doesn't mean we shouldn't defend them ourselves, but it does mean that it is the government's job to secure them too.

I sure as heck ain't a liberal, and I'm mostly a Libertarian, but I believe in having a state. Why should we have a state? To protect our rights for us, cause I really don't have time to devote all day to doing that.

Specialization: improving mankind's lot in the world since 20,000 B.C.

-Morgan
 
It's also not a stop light for the cops to "trick, or coerce, or whatever, a statement"

Where do you read it's a stop light or a go light, anyone?

So, if it isn't spelled out, it must be ones opinion. And we know what opinions are like, right?

In fact, if it was a red light the courts would nto alow it to happen. As they do allow this action and type of questioning, working on the psychi of the accused, it must be a green light or it would be ruled illegal which would stop such actions after Miranda.

I don't think I'd archive that just yet there sir.

Brownie
 
It's also not a stop light for the cops to "trick, or coerce, or whatever, a statement"
That is correct. The warning itself is meaningless. The "stop light" is the Fifth Amendment.

By your logic, we have no rights, as none are "spelled out" anywhere....not even the right to keep and bear arms. The Bill of Rights simply places *restrictions* upon government infringment of our rights. It does not attempt to define any right or limit the rights we have.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
it must be a green light or it would be ruled illegal
:rolleyes:
It has always been illegal to compel testimony from the accused, even before the Miranda warning existed.
 
Unless I open your mouth for you, hit you in the stomach to get you to expel air and then somehow get you to use your vocal cords in something resembling a spoken word, you have not been compelled to speak.

Did I open that perps mouth and force him to speak? I didn't think so. So where is the compelling coming from. It would seem everyone who speaks makes up their own mind to do so, unless I torture you and you cry out in pain, then you have been compelled to make noise.

Compelling is a physical action, not cerebral. If I don't touch you, how are you then compelled?

Brownie
 
Well, seeing how this thread has gone 4 pages.......I'd have to say it appears you've been compelling him. :D


ps Please stop violating his civil rights (j/k)
 
the Central Park Jogger case, where the teens that had "confessed" were actually innocent.
While the verdict was vacated by a judge, I think it is highly unlikely that the teens were "innocent". A man already imprisoned for rape claimed to have acted alone in beating and raping the jogger. While this new evidence clearly invalidates the verdict against the "boys", it seems certain they were involved in theft and assaults in the park that night. And there is always the question of why they would confess to a crime they didn't commit.

Were they beaten? Were they starved? Threatened? Forced to go without sleep for days on end? Were not allowed to have their parents present while the police interviewed them? Nothing of this sort was alleged by the youths. They claimed they were "tricked" by improper interrogation technique. Is it coercion for the police to tell you "it will go easier on you" if you confess? If they tell you they have eyewitness testimony against you (whether true on not)? Would you ever confess to something you didn't do, short of threats or actual violence?

It seems your version of the Miranda warning would go something like "Do not talk to me. Anything you say will be used against you. Ask for an attorney immediately and do not say another word. "

How will this protect our rights? Other than making it more likely that criminals will go free.
 
What Brownie, Carpetbagger, and I said (over and over).

You probably don't like it, but welcome to the real world- it's legal right now. I doubt you will see a judge reverse it anytime soon for your reasons. "Your honor, I advised him of his Miranda rights, he signed a waiver and a confession." What do you expect the judge to find wrong here (as long as I did NOT use physical force, we're not talking about beating a confession out of someone)?

I can tell you, after the Miranda:
Your buddy is in the next room spilling his guts and blaming it on you; why don't you tell me your side of the story right now?
We have an eye witness (or a surveliance camera) that saw you, why don't you tell us why you did what you did?
You left a fingerprint at the scene, confess now and maybe the DA will go easy on you.
Need I go on? Is that a compulsion to make you speak?

It is the cop's duty to advise you of YOUR Miranda rights (given the combination of custody AND questioning- we talked about Delaney and Rae Gestae). It is not his job to hold your hand afterwards. If he blows smoke in your ear and you buy it, you now have bigger problems. Especially if you are innocent; listen to the warning, request a lawyer, and SHUT UP. What part don't you understand?
 
If I may jump in here.

My credentials: I have just spent the last 4 months studying Criminal Procedure. a large part of which is Miranda and its progeny. Just wrote an exam also.

Doesn't make me an expert, but I do know the material.

Graystar, a few points.

In order to properly debate this stuff, I think you have to deal with a couple of assumptions. One of them is this. The criminal justice system has a deep and inherent flaw in it. It is a flaw inherent to human beings. The flaw simply is this. You and I can agree that we want justice in all cases, correct? We can also agree that the basic fundamental point of a criminal trial is too arrive at that point in determining guilt or innocence. Theoritically, if we always knew the truth, then no innocent men would be jailed and no guilty would unpunished. Unfortunately, in translating this to real life, we lose the ability to have absolute truth, since there is not such thing in the practical dealings of people. Can we hold that as a given?

Next we approach the subject of rights. Since we cannot have absolute truth, we must protect the rights of the accussed, since it then become likely that falsehood will imprison an innocent person. We deal with this problem with rights, and the adverserial process.

Now if you take the two concepts and combine them, there is one thing that should be clear. Truth and rights of the accused do not head in the same direction. In fact, the rights of the accused frequently obscure the truth of the proceeding. This is not to state that there shouldn't be rights, since as I have established, there is no absolute truth. However, any discussion on the enforcement of rights should clearly understand that as rights are enforced with greater and greater vigor, they will have a detrimental effect on the efficient and truthful administration of justice. I have heard it said that it is better that 10 guilty murderers should go free then one innocent man be imprisoned for murder, but I think that shortshrifts the future victims of those 10.

Approaching Miranda again.

Miranda was decided by the Warren court. The basis for the decision was a hostility to all confessions. Prior to this decision, the 5th Amendment prohibited coerced confessions. This concept had been in force for a long time. Coerced confessions are considered unreliable. All confessions must meet this Constitutional Bar. The usual test is a totality of circumstances, where we assess the amount of coercion, the will of the subject etc etc.

Miranda served as a prophylactic measure on confessions, as well as the right to counsel. If a subject is not Mirandized, there is a basically irrebutable presumption of coercion on the confession, and it will be barred. Notice that Mirandized coerced confession will still be governed by the 5th Amendment voluntariness standard. Thus, I think you are misreading the decision, and conflating two different issues.

For further reading of Miranda and current Scotus Caselaw, I suggest you go and read Dickerson v. Illinois. Scalia's dissent lays out a very cogent argument on Mirnada's flaws.
 
Unless I open your mouth for you, hit you in the stomach to get you to expel air and then somehow get you to use your vocal cords in something resembling a spoken word, you have not been compelled to speak.
The Supreme Court does not agree.

"Much of the confusion which has resulted from the effort to deduce from the adjudged cases what would be a sufficient quantum of proof to show that a confession was or was not voluntary, has arisen from a misconception of the subject to which the proof must address itself. The rule is not that in order to render a statement admissible the proof must be adequate to establish that the particular communications contained in a statement were voluntarily made, but it must be sufficient to establish that the making of the statement was voluntary; that is to say, that from the causes, which the law treats as legally sufficient to engender in the mind of the accused hope or fear in respect to the crime charged, the accused was not involuntarily impelled to make a statement, when but for the improper influences he would have remained silent. . . ."
Bram v. United States, 168 U.S. 532
 
While the verdict was vacated by a judge, I think it is highly unlikely that the teens were "innocent".
They were not angels, but they also were not guilty of the crime they were charged with. Are you suggesting that it was okay to put them in jail anyway?
And there is always the question of why they would confess to a crime they didn't commit.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cassel1221.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/falseconfessions020925.html
 
They were not angels, but they also were not guilty of the crime they were charged with

No, they were not proven guilty, once you considered the additional testimony of Reyes. It seems likely to me, however, that they did assault her. Perhaps not
actually raping (that is, penetrating) the victim
but I think they watched and joined in with Reyes. And that Reyes is now claiming sole responsibilty to play the system, to throw it in the Court's and the People's faces. Proving it, however, is another matter. And no I don't think they should be jailed if you can't prove them guilty. I'm fairly sure they will eventually wind up in jail or come to a bad end anyway. Much like Miranda himself.
 
but I think they watched and joined in with Reyes.
The DNA evidence matched Reyes. There was no DNA evidence at all that put those accused at the scene. There isn't a single shred of evidence or testimony to support such an assertion.

Don't you think those teens would have mentioned Reyes??
 
However, any discussion on the enforcement of rights should clearly understand that as rights are enforced with greater and greater vigor, they will have a detrimental effect on the efficient and truthful administration of justice.
One could just as easily say the opposite, and be correct.
Notice that Mirandized coerced confession will still be governed by the 5th Amendment voluntariness standard.
The point that I'm trying to make is that while your statement is ideally true, the reality is that a claim of coercion is far more difficult to make if a Miranda warning was given. The problem with that is that the two have nothing to do with each other. The Miranda warning speaks to voluntary behavior (*you* have the right to remain silent.) But a coerced statement, by its very nature, is involuntary. The fact of whether or not a Miranda warning was given should never be considered in the validity of a confession.
 
"One could just as easily say the opposite, and be correct."

That is somewhat of a non-sequitur.

Even if the statement is reversed, the basic premise holds true. That Rights and Truth cannot co-exist equally in the Criminal Justice. Thus, a balancing.

Your reply gives no further basis for further comment because it is impossible to tell what you mean by that.

"The point that I'm trying to make is that while your statement is ideally true, the reality is that a claim of coercion is far more difficult to make if a Miranda warning was given. The problem with that is that the two have nothing to do with each other. The Miranda warning speaks to voluntary behavior (*you* have the right to remain silent.) But a coerced statement, by its very nature, is involuntary. The fact of whether or not a Miranda warning was given should never be considered in the validity of a confession."

Here you are getting into very thorny territory. This is what the Warren court was trying to solve. And as can be seen by this discussion, and a journey through the ugly stare decisis of Miranda decisions, the problem was far from solved.

The problem you are going to have is this. The Constitution says:

"No person shall be ...compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

From this language we have created this nebulous voluntariness standard. This standard defies a black and white definition. What did the founders mean by this? What do we in current society mean by this? Does it apply equally to each person, or does it change according to the person? Does the crime suspected matter? For instance, should a rapist and a shoplifter be treated the same? Do we want no confessions? What other forms of coercion must we consider? (See Connelly v. Colorado)

And it basically comes down to this. We want the police to do their jobs. Confessions are a helpful tool. I think the founders surely did not want confessions beat out of people, but I don't think that they considered good cop, bad cop on the same level as the rack. In fact, neither do I.

The curious thing is that Miranda really doesn't matter. Sure, it puts a presumption of involuntariness on the confessions of Un-Mirandized subjects, but the weak ones will still roll over, while the hardened criminals will know what to do. Thus we have merely created a prophylactic device that help those that we least want to help.

Therefore, it circles us back around to voluntariness, and dealing with the subject again. How do we deal with it? Don't completely have the answer to that one, sorry.
 
a Graystar example

Cannabis grower calls police after burglary

An Australian man who called police to report his cannabis plants being stolen, has been arrested on drugs charges.

The 23-year-old from Torrensville, Adelaide, called police after finding four intruders in his home.

Officers who arrived on the scene arrested four men trying to steal the plants that were being grown in two rooms.

The four were arrested on charges of aggravated serious criminal trespass, says the news.com website.

The homeowner was later charged with cultivating 16 cannabis plants. He's due in court at a later date.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_847671.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suspect Graystar would be upset that this gentleman's "rights" were violated. :neener:
 
That is somewhat of a non-sequitur.
I guess you can say that. This isn’t about wordplay or mental exercises. This is about reality. You say protection of rights interferes with the determination of the truth. However, there are many examples where the protection of rights (that is, Miranda warnings) has contributed to “proving†a falsehood.
Your reply gives no further basis for further comment because it is impossible to tell what you mean by that.
The misuse of Miranda has been the point of this entire thread.
From this language we have created this nebulous voluntariness standard. This standard defies a black and white definition.
That is correct, and follows the method for which all our rights are protected. Just as our rights have no clear limitations, neither should the definition of restrictions upon those rights. Newly discovered ways to violates our rights should never be allowed just because they're not written in the book somewhere. This isn't contract law.
What did the founders mean by this?
You can find that out easily by doing a little research on the subject.
What do we in current society mean by this?
You have the rulings that define the standard for compelled testimony. That’s what current society means.
Does it apply equally to each person,
Of course it does. That’s a silly question. What right has ever had a different application based on who you were??
Does the crime suspected matter?
Of course not. Why would it? There’s no bases for such a query.
Do we want no confessions?
Voluntary confessions are fine. The problem is with compelled confessions. We DON’T want those.
What other forms of coercion must we consider?
ALL forms.
 
Is there a difference in volunterring a confession because you feel remorse or guilt and being prodded by LEO's to accept these feelings and confess?

I don't think so. Working on someones emotions is not a violation of their rights.

If that were the case, I would be able to sue my mother and father for making me feel guilty through interrogation about sneaking that cigarette behind the garage when I was 16 yrs old. They should have read me miranda and gone no further. I was never informed of my "rights" and I guess according to Graystar they should have asked if I did and gone no further with their questioning.

Didn't we all say "no" automatically, at least part of the time, to questions our parents asked when we were suspected of doing something we were not supposed to do?

No, No, No, I didn't do it. Accepting that answer on its face without further inquiries is like all the people in prison are innocent and di not commit their crimes.

Human nature allows/leads us to psychologically defend ourselves with denial for fear of retribution and punishment. No, No No, I didn't do it. Are we to accept that initial defensive pat answer by criminals?

I don't think so.

I now want all the punishments of staying in my room and missed ball games, missed dates, missed opportunities for dinner, ad nauseum back. I've been violated and denied by rights by them not informing me I had any, by law.

And even if it wasn't a violation of my rights by law, what are the moral implications of parents who violate their childrens rights to say "no" and not further persue the truth.

Just say no, no ,no ,no, no, no, and no some more. Oh wait, if I have stated "no" that many times, I must be being violated.

Brownie
 
I don't think so. Working on someones emotions is not a violation of their rights.
You continue to comment under the presumption that the person is actually guilty of the crime. There are many cases where people confessed to crimes they did not commit. I gave two links in a previous post, giving reasons and examples of such testimony. However, I get the feeling that you are choosing to remain ignorant of the historical record. If that is the case then we are at an impasse, and no amount of discussion will move us forward.
 
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