misunderstood bullets?

[Nicodemus38]

why is the wadcutter still considered as either target only, or "ok sd ammo" for those considered girly he-men or too arthritic in the hands for anything else?

people tell me that i need to use fast expanding hollowpoints or jsp to get fast expansion for hydrodynamic shock. that is a real phenomenon, however the whole point of the expansion is to create a large FLAT frontal mass to the bullet to destroy tissue.

wadcutters already have that flat frontal mass. why do i need to switch to something frailure in construction to get the flat frontal profile?

other thought, take a canister of playdough, stab it with a philips screw driver or ice pick, the implement penetrates fast and doesnt meet much resistance till roughly half way through.
use a bolt with a flat end and try to shovethat through, how much more resistance is there?

 

[Gik-tal]

You will find that most people do not understand or comprehend ballistics and that is involved with what the bullet does when it contacts a target. This is probably the reason for 500 S&W snub nose revolvers. Truth is you want something that will penetrate and transfer its energy to the target. The wad cutter bullet does a great job at this, they tend to hit hard and penetrate, without over penetration. One big problem they do have is that they are very hard to use with a speed loader that is where the Semi wad cutter comes in. You may see that some fast expanding hollowpoints tend to expand way to soon, others not at all. It all comes down to understanding what the bullet will do against a given target.

 

[NG VI]

A good JHP or LHP in the same caliber will generally be a better option than a wadcutter, even though I understand what you are saying and agree that a sharp-edged wadcutter is a ghastly non-expanding bullet to launch into a creature. I think that for many purposes, like small-caliber revolvers and autos that can accept them, the wadcutter has a definite place for defense use, but for the most part, a decent or better hollow point is a better choice. Pretty much all modern hollow point bullets do expand when fired into living tissue, expansion isn't nearly as iffy as it used to be twenty or thirty years ago. And the amount of research and developement into service-caliber bullets over the last twenty years is pretty big, and centers on A. getting bullets to expand either every time or as close as can be and B. penetrating deeply enough to reach vitals and stop the threat, even after full expansion.

Hollow points aren't the trade-off compromise bullets they used to be, they do still give up a good amount of penetration compared to a non-expanding bullet, but designers no longer have to choose between offering a bullet that WILL expand every time and a bullet that WILL hit vitals if aimed properly, even on a poor angle of attack.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

wadcutters already have that flat frontal mass.

An expanded hollow-point has an even larger "flat frontal mass" than an expanded wadcutter.

 

[CWL]

people tell me that i need to use fast expanding hollowpoints or jsp to get fast expansion for hydrodynamic shock. that is a real phenomenon

No it isn't.

Hydrostatic shock, especially from pistol calibers is a myth.

Besides, commercial wadcutters are typically loaded light and aren't designed for penetration or expansion.

I do know of one person who handoads loads his own .357 mags very hot and with wadcutters, his rounds may stack-up against commercial JHPs.

 

[GRIZ22]

An expanded hollow-point has an even larger "flat frontal mass" than an expanded wadcutter.

This is true but a wadcutter starts outhitting the target in a shape the hollowpoint has to expand a bit to get to.

Besides, commercial wadcutters are typically loaded light and aren't designed for penetration or expansion.

No they aren't loaded for either but their penetration is not as bad as you may think. See the attached links:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/

This may be due to the fact that the wadcutter has a light base and doesn't tumble as many bullets will do.

 

[Snowdog]

I would think a 148gr HBWC at "target" velocities would do the trick if placement was there but a hardcast gas checked DEWC at magnum velocities sounds vicious to me (of course, there goes your pleasant recoil).

Yes, these things have run their course through my mind as well.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

why is the wadcutter still considered as either target only, or "ok sd ammo" for those considered girly he-men or too arthritic in the hands for anything else?

It is not the bullet shape, it is the low velocity to which they are loaded, for their original intended purpose, shooting at paper targets for scores. They probably barely make 600 fps out of a snubnose revolver, but they do produce less recoil. The reason for the full caliber sharp edged profile is that it cuts a cleaner hole in the paper. You may have noticed that conventional bullets make a ragged hole that is smaller in diameter than the bullet. This could make the difference between touching the edge of the next scoring ring - which scores at the higher value - or not. If the velocity were raised they would be better "stoppers." (Term used advisedly - there is no "magic bullet," nor does it remove the need to hit your target in the right place. Put another way, they should not be considered a panacea.) Also, wadcutters are difficult to load with a speedloader, which restricts them to the "in-gun" load, and will not feed in autoloaders, which restricts them to the first shot which you have to hand feed into the chamber.

 

[hammerklavier]

As long as they are hard cast & sharp edged and loaded to a respectable velocity (not target velocity) then they should be pretty good for defense. Buffalo Bore is one company that makes such loads.

 

[Jim Watson]

why is the wadcutter still considered as either target only, or "ok sd ammo" for those considered girly he-men or too arthritic in the hands for anything else?

Because people don't study history and don't read the current catalogs.

The only .38 wadcutters regularly available now are "mid-range" wadcutters at a nominal velocity of 750 fps (from a long barrel, less from common guns) meant for target shooting.
Once upon a time, there were full charge wadcutters at the same 850 fps as the then-standard roundnose police load. The last of the breed seems to have been the Peters Service Wadcutter which even weighed the same 158 grains as the ball load instead of the 148 of their own Target Wadcutter. I presume this to be due to using a flatbase wadcutter to avoid the blow-through of the HBWC we are so often warned against in handloading.

If you like the idea, Buffalo Bore sells a 150 gr wadcutter at a claimed 868 fps from a 2" revolver, 1005 fps from a 4" real revolver. If you handload, older Speer manuals show their bevel base wadcutter loaded to well over 900 fps.

 

[Maj Dad]

HBWCs

I used to load soft 148 gr HBWCs over 2.7 gr of Bullseye for CF pistol in 38s and turn it over base up with hotter loads for SD loads. It shot almost as well upside down as rightside up for me though it would lead if I got too hot. I don't think I ever checked to see how well (or if at all) it expanded but all the gun hacks used to talk about it...

 

[Snowdog]

I don't think I ever checked to see how well (or if at all) it expanded but all the gun hacks used to talk about it..

Back during my playdough expansion tests, a buddy insisted I test a load that was a reverse loaded HBWC. It was the only load in .38 special that I ever saw expand to about the size of a nickel. I do recall relative penetration was rather shallow (don't remember to what degree) but it was still a riot.

 

[orrwdd]

Elmer Keith proved that the most effective handgun bullet type on game is the SEMI Wadcutter. It retains the mass of the larger ball type bullet and also has the sharp shoulder of the wadcutter.

The advantage of the sharp shoulder is that it CUTS it's way through tissue, veins, arteries, etc. A round nose bullet can push blood vessels out of the way, causing less loss of blood.

While doing this though, it's penetration is much greater than hollow points, and when used on weak skinned humans, it has more of a chance of over penetration. That I think is the real reason for the hollow point hype.

Bill

 

[Sunray]

A swaged or cast WC is most assuredly a bullet made to punch, nice, clean, easily scored, holes in paper targets. That doesn't mean you want to get hit by one. A slow, WC, target load, will seriously ruin your day.
HP's, etc require velcocity to expand.
"...the whole point of the expansion is to create a large FLAT frontal mass..." Nope. Bullet expansion causes massive tissue destruction through hydrostatic shock. A PSP rifle bullet does the same thing.

 

[Oyeboten]

Now this has me thinking of Hollow-Nose-Flat-Face-Wadcutters of a 158 Grain weight, loaded full-house.

Seems like it'd punch a wider hole than a Semi-wad, and, then, expand about as nicely as anyone could want.

With a Hollow-Nose being a little smaller in diameter and deeper than a usual Hollow-Base...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Other than the Buffalo Bore wadcutters I don't think there are any commercial loads that will make a good SD round. They can be loaded hot enough to do a good job. (but that brings another set of possible problems with it)

 

[Gryffydd]

Truth is you want something that will penetrate and transfer its energy to the target.

Nope. At least, not with pistols. Pistols do not kill by some kind of energy transfer--there just isn't enough energy. They kill by cutting, ripping, tearing, or smashing flesh. It's the bullet itself that does the damage. The energy just keeps it moving.

wadcutters already have that flat frontal mass.

A .45 wadcutter is .45" a .45 HST JHP expands to roughly 1"--while still penetrating well.

The SEMI-wadcutter as orrwdd says, is quite the performer in pistols, especially against tougher targets like game animals where over penetration is less of a concern. Given the thin and lightly constructed nature of humans and the potentially crowded areas you may have to defend yourself there's not really a good reason to go with wadcutters for defense unless you're shooting a pop gun where you can't get good penetration from hollow points.

 

[GRIZ22]

Elmer Keith proved that the most effective handgun bullet type on game is the SEMI Wadcutter. It retains the mass of the larger ball type bullet and also has the sharp shoulder of the wadcutter.


Keith was also very much into shooting at very long ranges (for handguns) and I will not argue that a semi-wad is better for this. The full wadcutter has a very low balllistic coefficient and loses velocity fast. Target load wadcutters will usually keyhole in a target at 50 yds out of a 2" barrel.

A full wadcutter is better as a SD round at SD ranges. Jim Cirillo did a lot of research looking for the "magic bullet" for SD shooting. Most of his designs were wadcutters with a cup type hollowpoint.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Jim Cirillo did a lot of research looking for the "magic bullet" for SD shooting. Most of his designs were wadcutters with a cup type hollowpoint.

In his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights he relates that such a bullet in .45 Auto, handloaded and hand fed into the chamber of his partner's Colt 1911, performed very decisively in a shootout. This was not anecdotal; both men actually went to the post-mortems and personally examined the results.

 

[schnarrgj]

Here is a link for a very informative and detailed article on terminal
ballistics. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/myths.html The Sharp edge of a semi wad cutter or a regular wadcutter does not cut. The wound channel is determined by the actual size of the metplate (flat point of the bullet) plus velocity and other factors.

 

[Gryffydd]

That is a nice article, though I would note that it does not mention anything about wadcutters, meplats, or what does what on a wad cutter. They way you formatted your post looks like it is your source for that comment.

I would question why it is that paper targets shot with semi-wadcutters have holes the size of the shoulder rather than the meplat.

 

[NG VI]

Guns, Bullets and Gunfights

That book is a little unfocused and about a quarter of the length it should be, but I love reading it. He was a really great guy and I'll never get tired of reading his Stakeout Squad stories.

 

[woad_yurt]

Wadcutter fan here....

A 148 gr hollowbase wadcutter makes a great SD round. 4 gr of W231 will make 'em a very potent SD round. .38 SPL gives borderline minimum velocities (at best) for hollowpoints. Handload these and you can practice with your SD round. It's cheap and it's a pleasantly shooting round.

A wadcutter with a real load will create a mini subway tunnel in a body. A pointed bullet (unexpanded hollowpoint) separates muscle tissue, which will then close back together of its own accord. That can't happen when the tissue is punched out and removed. You have a kind of cannula accompanied by very generous hemorrhaging.

 

[Steve C]

why is the wadcutter still considered as either target only, or "ok sd ammo" for those considered girly he-men or too arthritic in the hands for anything else?

Its a simple fact that solid bullets are less effective than hollow points and other expanding type bullets in terminating aggressive action by a person being shot.

That is not to say that they will not work for self defense but the times where they will stop aggressive action with one or more shots will be less than if an appropriate expanding bullet was used.

A wadcutter with a real load will create a mini subway tunnel in a body. A pointed bullet (unexpanded hollowpoint) separates muscle tissue, which will then close back together of its own accord.

An interesting theory, just doesn't apear to matter in making the bullet more effective unless its driven hard enough it actually expands which likely means a soft bullet at well above 1000 fps or .357 mag velocities. Despite all the theory and imagining of how a flat nosed bullet or wide mplat should be more effective than a round nose bullet it just doesn't hold up to real street data for the relatively low velocity .38 spl.

Examine the statistical data gathered by the Marshall Sanow Study pictured below and compare 158gr .38 spl LRN standard velocity with 158gr SWC +P data below it and you can see the flatter point with slightly higher velocity shows no significant statistical imporovement. Now examine the .357 mag data and you see a significant statistical improvement of 158gr SWC's at the much higher velocity wich produces some expansion to .49".

At the bottom section you can compare the data for 125gr .38 spl +P JHP's amd see in all cases they're a significant improvement over any of the the .38 spl solids and in some cases equal to the .357 mag SWC solid.

 

[Oyeboten]

Given that most shorter Barreled .38 Specials, should be comfortable to send a 148 Grain Bullet well into the 800 or low 900 FPS with no overpressure issues...given the right Powder anyway...


A plain, soft Lead, 148 Grain Wadcutter, loaded cup-end 'up'...might do very well...or, as well as anything could, under the circumstances.

Historically, this was the testimony or hear-say, anyway.


If one Carries a .38 Special, shorter Barrel, and is interested to decide a defense Bullet, seeing as one's FPS will be a compromise between Bullet Weight, Powder type, and what the Revolver will stand safely...there's not a lot to choose from compared to .357 and it's higher velocities.


There's lots of commercial offerings of course, which maybe are not going to live up to expectations through a 2 or 3 inch Barrel.




Good Chart Steve...