Lead 38 Bullets in Gel. How Did They Do?

[USBP379]

Long overdue but I finally shot a couple 38 Special lead bullet loads into 10% organic gel. I used a Ruger LCR for the test. Gel was shot from ten feet.

The first load is a full wadcutter from Double Tap. This is not billed as a +P load and is loaded with a cast double ended bullet not a swaged or hollow base wadcutter.

Velocity of the Double Tap was pretty low, not surprisingly. My Caldwell chronograph showed an average of about 735 feet per second. Recoil, as expected, was mild.

I fired three rounds of the DT load. Two into bare gel and one through FBI clothing. The bare gel bullets passed through my 20" block while the bullet fired through clothing went to about 15.5 inches.

Note the dark smudge pictured behind the bullet. This is a plug of clothing that was shed as the bullet neared the end of its travel.



Next up is the 158gr LSWCHP loaded by Remington. This is billed as a +P load and appears to be a swaged bullet. I had been looking forward to this bullet and was expecting some decent performance.

I only fired two of these. One into bare gel and one through clothing. Both bullets went a little over 14 inches. Neither bullet showed much evidence of expansion.

Velocity with this was surprisingly low. My chrono showed 775 FPS with these. Recoil, again, was pretty mild.






As far as "tissue damage" to the gel; I tried to photo the tracks in gel but my cellphone camera really struggles to focus. I guess that's why Hornady and others squirt die into the gel after firing. Anyway, I really didn't note anything spectacular with one bullet over the other. Maybe that's because the SWC and full WC produce similar results in gel.

Anyway, those who like the idea of the full wadcutter for use in a snubby will be happy with these results. Those who prefer the 158gr FBI load probably won't.

 

[RON in PA]

To get the 158 grain lead hpswc bullets to expand you need a 3" barrel at the least, preferably a 4" barrel. Your results confirm everything I've heard or read on these bullets in a snubby.

 

[kBob]

Thanks for doing this and posting good pictures. From the photos it looks like the DEWC bullets actually cut a permanent wound channel their diameter.
-kBob

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

Wadcutters seem to be the best out of a snub barreled .38, I have seen enough tests on game to know that the Federal .38 micro load (the plated hollowpoint wadcutter) works very well, the only thing Id like to see from it is in a heaver weight (158 gr) and increase in velocity, then I think you'll have the best .38 load ever devised by man.

 

[Yarddog]

Great pics & info ; )
Y/D

 

[Riomouse911]

The wadcutters performed exactly as I expect they always will; a solid slug penetrating in a straight line into the mediums they're fired into.

Maybe for the next test put a rack of pork ribs between the denim and the gel to see if there is any deflection in the wadcutter's bullet's path or maybe a touch of deformation/expansion if it hits a rib bone... I could see the 735 fps load you fired not penetrating very well after such an obstacle if denim by itself reduced penetration by 5" or more.

Now I could see the 148 gr loads pumped up to a +P velocity of 800-825 fps in a snub revolver packing a nasty punch...

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

That's poor performance for a dead soft 158 gr lswhp as loaded by Remington. I expected more in expansion & velocity. Perhaps you have a slow gun or a underpowered box of Remingtons. We (brassfetcher) & myself tested the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. lswhp some 10 years ago & got an honest 1006 fps from my s & w 640 1.7/8". We also tested their 125 jhp from the same gun & got 1235 fps. We shot a lot of different bullets from the .22 mag. (from a rifle), 38 special, 351 Winchester & .303 British. It was a lot of fun.

 

[amd6547]

Over on the S&W forum, there was some grousing that Remington lowered the velocity on the 158gn LSWCHP +P load when they moved it into the “HTP” line.

 

[USBP379]

I wonder how something like a hardcast WFN bullet might do. Loaded right, it should provide plenty of penetration without excessive recoil to allow for faster follow up shots. The bullet should be easier to speed load than the WC design too.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you for posting your results. Not to sound harsh but no one should care how a bullet looks after hitting jello. The FBI load is street tested and reliable in a real fight, that counts. Way too many people focus on bullet expansion only, I say accuracy in your gun is most important because the best bullet in the world will do you no good unless you make good hits.

 

[USBP379]

Thank you for posting your results. Not to sound harsh but no one should care how a bullet looks after hitting jello.

The issue with anecdotal evidence is just that. It is anecdotal. Based on personal accounts rather than factual results. Gel, while not perfect, does provide a repeatable and consistent method of comparing one bullet to another and/or testing various bullets at different velocities. It is currently the accepted LE standard for terminal ballistic testing.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The issue with anecdotal evidence is just that. It is anecdotal. Based on personal accounts rather than factual results. Gel, while not perfect, does provide a repeatable and consistent method of comparing one bullet to another and/or testing various bullets at different velocities. It is currently the accepted LE standard for terminal ballistic testing.

I agree testing does have merit, especially to compare bullets like you said. Again, I thank you for your efforts. I was trying to bring out just because a bullet doesn't show that perfect picture expansion doesn't akways mean it's a bad choice for SD.

 

[golden]

The lack of expansion just goes to prove you need more velocity than you can usually get out of a snubnose. Marshall & Sanow noted that they found an increase in effectiveness when going from a 2 inch .38 Special to a 4 inch. The increase in velocity would put the bullet of the expansion threshold. Also, note that unlike the wadcutter which OVERPENETRATED, the hollow point did not.

My own research has lead me to carry the FEDERAL HST 130 grain hollow point load. It really looks like a hollow base wadcutter loaded in backwards, but will expand, even from a snub nose. For my speedloader, I use WINCHESTER "D" Defend 130 grain hollow point as it is likely to expand at even low velocities. It would be really great if FEDERAL brought back the old "Chief Special" NYCLAD 125 hollow point load. It earned a good reputations with departments that adopted it.

Jim

 

[ThomasT]

Good test. I like the 38 WC bullet for a defense round. But mine are loaded much hotter than that. Matter of fact shooting into water filled 2 liter coke bottles I have never recovered one. But they do hit hard. I use my cast Lee tumble lube WC bullets. I am not so much concerned with expansion but penetration. I think expansion is overblown. (sorry, couldn't help myself).

Long ago I was watching one of the cop shows and a woman had shot her husband two times with a 38 special loaded with WC bullets. Probably a load he gave her to use because of the low recoil. Both bullets went through his body. Of course he died. The bullets didn't have a lot of energy left after shooting through the man. The bullets bounced off the walls and furniture. They only found one bullet. The woman somehow came up with another WC bullet and laid it in the window behind the blinds and told the cops she found the missing second bullet. The cops knew better and she was charged with murder.

So while they may "over penetrate" these bullets didn't have enough energy left to do more than bruise anyone standing behind the shootee.

 

[Eddietruett]

I've done some very unscientific testing. Mainly with water jugs and with soaked newspaper. The Rim Rock SWCHP is very soft about Brinell 7 and it does great at low velocity of 700-800 fps if you are looking for expansion. They mushroom great but don't seem to penetrate very well. Lately I've been playing with some cast bullets from GT Bullets. I think they are around Brinell 11. Was not impressed with the 130gr HP. I think the walls are too thick and got no expansion, but have had great results with the 140gr HP. Pushed around 900 fps it expanded to over 1/2 inch and got pretty good penetration. On gallon water jugs, all bullets wound up in 4th jug. For comparison, I used the factory Remington Golden Saber 125gr +p which is rated very high in Luckygunner testing. Expansion was about the same as the GT Bullet but the GS only made it to the 3rd jug. I think either would make a good man stopper. All of my testing was done using a 3" S&W Model 65 which is my carry gun. To answer one of the above post, I've shot the hard cast 180gr HyTek coated from Missouri with a 3" barrel around 800fps and they will penetrate great but really no expansion. But all will do the job if the shot placement is in the right place.