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(MO) Police Ditch Shotguns for Rifles

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Drizzt, Aug 27, 2005.

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  1. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

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    Police Ditch Shotguns for Rifles
    created: 8/26/2005 6:12:37 PM
    updated: 8/26/2005 9:44:18 PM

    By Mike Owens
    Investigative Reporter

    KSDK-The St. Louis Police Department is upping the ante on criminals, getting rid of its shotguns, replacing them with 9 millimeter semi automatic rifles.

    The rifles come with a scope, making them more accurate at long distances, unlike the shotguns, which only have an effective combat range of 25 yards.

    The 400 rifles and laser scopes cost more than a half million dollars, but, in a form of poetic justice, the money was seized from drug dealers!

    Officers are now fully trained on the new rifles, which are smaller, lighter and more easily handled than the shotguns. Some shotguns remain in patrol cars, but they are quickly being replaced.

    The old guns will not be sent in on trade, they will be melted down as scrap. The police chief, Joe Mokwa, says that would prevent the guns from ever falling into the wrong hands.

    Several years ago, a police officer in Jefferson City was killed by a man who had purchased his weapon in an auction at the Missouri Highway Patrol. The weapon still had the highway patrol emblem etched in its side when it was used to kill the officer.

    http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=83905

    [​IMG]
    What kind of rifle is this? At $1250 per rifle, it doesn't look like that good of a deal.
     
  2. Plumber576

    Plumber576 Member

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    What a liar. Whatever.

    What I don't get is why they don't invest in some AR's? I see that they are Baretta carbines...and the only logical explination I can think of os that their duty side arms must be Barettas.

    I know that in my hometown officers have to carry a patrol rifle in their trunk...an ar.
     
  3. The Viking

    The Viking Member

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    Looks very much like Beretta CX4 Storm.
     
  4. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    I dont really see how a change from 12 guage shotguns to 9mm carbines is a big improvement. Methinks that this has more to do with accomodating shooters of "smaller stature" and greater recoil sensitivity than anything else.
     
  5. Firethorn

    Firethorn Member

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    Agreed. That's awfully expensive. I hope that it included training.

    BTW: Why 9mm? Isn't one of the main reasons for getting rifles in the first place to penetrate body armor if needed? Will 9mm, even from a carbine, cut it?
     
  6. fistful

    fistful member

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    Chief Mokwa continues the War on Irony. "If you kill my officers," said Mokwa, "the gun better come from Wal-Mart, or we are coming after you."

    With tongue out of cheek, doesn't it follow that if one can buy a weapon from a law enforcement organization, one could buy a weapon anywhere? Wouldn't you think the Highway Patrol has easier access to background checks than Joe Retailer? What would have stopped that guy from buying a gun anywhere else? I guess the gubmint just needs more ways to waste to waste our money.

    Reporting from Saint Louis County,

    I'm fistful.

    Back to you, Dan.
     
  7. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    I'd be mad if I was a STL LEO. But OTOH a scattergun requires more skill to use proficiently, and since most LEOs arent shooters, I'm sure they're happy with it.

    I'd rather have a 9mm AR than a CX4. How much are the CX4s anyway?
     
  8. Remington788

    Remington788 Member

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    No kiding. The rifles look like Beretta CX4 Storms, which wholesale for about $550 and the optics look like EOTECH 552s which wholesale for about $350 for a total of $900. Even if you add 10% for resale, that is still less than $1000. So they over paid by $250 per rifle, mulitply that by 400 and someone made an easy $100,000. :scrutiny:
     
  9. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    They may have also got pelican cases. Figure that in, with the custom-cut closed cell foam, and the price seems realistic.
     
  10. Matthew748

    Matthew748 Member

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    It seems like a case of one step forward and two steps backwards. I would rather have a 12 gauge shotgun than a Beretta Storm in 9mm.
     
  11. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Wow! a 9mm is a better combat weapon than a 12 guage loaded with 9 or 10 ~9mm diameter balls fired at 1300 fps. I gotsta sign me up for one of them new age math classes.

    If they can't hit a target with 00 buck beyond 25 yards, they need more training, not an expensive pop rifle.
     
  12. shermacman

    shermacman Member

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    Every day I learn something new. A 12 gauge shot gun is only effective within 25 yards. Hmmm....
    I suppose at a hundred yards you could practically play catch with the slugs if you got a buddy to shoot at you.
     
  13. NastyNate

    NastyNate Member

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    The local PD here in Cleveland, TN is slowing moving from shotguns to AR-15's. I talked to the guy that is building them for the PD. He said he has build 30 so far, with another 70 coming soon.
     
  14. P0832177

    P0832177 member

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    I think it is a logistics thing, too. Commonality of magazines comes to mind.
    Securing the weapon in the squad car? Training Time costs $ in both range time and ammo for familiarization. So, that figure could easily be met with some gouging going on.
     
  15. 115grfmj

    115grfmj Member

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    nothing is better....

    than a good shotgun at the close combat ranges the average LEO is
    likely to engage targets. Nothing wrong with arming a few qualified
    inidivuals with rifles, per shift, to deal with poss. threats, but replacing
    shotguns as a whole is likely to bit them in the #ss. :uhoh:
     
  16. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    These days you have to plan for the lowest common denominator. The copchick in the foreground probably had trouble handling the pump stroke length and effort of a shotgun and the and recoil of a 12 gauge.
     
  17. ChairborneRanger

    ChairborneRanger Member

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    A good friend of mine retired as a Lieutenant from the Michigan State Police a few years back. He has always told me that whenever he got into a situation where he thought he might really have to use a firearm----he brought his 12 GA pump. That says it all for me.
     
  18. CARRY'IN

    CARRY'IN member

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    They mentioned "laser scopes", maybe it has a laser on it.
     
  19. enfield

    enfield Member

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    Oh, Lord. The politicians are spending our money again (still) and telling us what's best for us, even when it flies in the face of common sense. I bet the cops on the beat would rather have a shotgun than another 7 lb pistol.
     
  20. bosshoff

    bosshoff Member

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    This is a mistake.

    Do you remember the time you brought out your friend to shoot for the first time? You wanted him (a novice) to be able to hit something his first time out, and you wanted him to leave with a positive experience. You had him shoot a shotgun, didn't you. Why, because it is easier to point a shotgun, than it is is to aim a rifle. (Obviously, you left the #4 lead shot at home, and brought some light dove loads. ;) )
     
  21. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    Says in the article the rifles were purchased with siezed drug money.

    I agree with others it's a bad deal and that SLPD got took in a big way. Does it look to anyone else like the "hump" on the grip of the service auto in the male officer's holster looks too big to be a Beretta? Wihout mag commonality (very very unlikely to be an advantage over a 12 ga. in the first place) this is one of the worst deals of the century.
     
  22. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    But ya' got to admit that they look "badder." Looks are everything. The sheeple will be impressed. Evil black rifles are O.K. so long as the police have them. On the other hand I suppose they'll demand that they be outlawed for everyone else. :uhoh:
     
  23. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    A 9mm is not a rifle. A 9mm is not a carbine. A 9mm in this configuration is a semi-auto subgun look-a-like. If these were in 10mm, I might say they could be carbines, but not quite. If they simply equipped them with actual M-1 carbines, they'd be far ahead. 9mm is a handgun or subgun round, not a rifle round. If they wanted rifles, they should have bought rifles.
     
  24. Matt G

    Matt G Moderator Emeritus

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    I've always said I'd rather see rifles than shotguns on patrol. More accuracy and power means fewer shots fired, means you have better control of your downrange rounds. Those who argue the "overpenetration" side need to study the issue of where 12 pellets of 00 buck go each time a shotgun is fired.

    My only issue is that they didn't use a rifle round. But for making hits at under 100 yards, especially in "active shooter" scenarios, it should do far better than pistols. Lord knows that pistol cal carbines have no felt recoil to speak of, so accuracy should go up.

    Hope they have the good sense to put slings on those rifles. They'll increase the utility about 100%. But then, I think every patrol shotgun should have a sling as well, and I pretty much NEVER see that.
     
  25. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Hey, this is St. Louis... one wonders how much palm grease was applied by the vendor, in the first place!
     
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