modern choice of jungle rifle

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

There has been a lot of traffic lately involving the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the venerable M16/5.56 combination in the longer engagement ranges we are encountering in Afghanistan.

There has also been a lot of discussion about the M16/5.56 as an urban combat weapon.

Mostly the opinion seems to be, "There is no one satisfactory combat rifle that suits all purposes equally well." I agree.

My question goes back to our first large-scale use of the Stoner design and the 5.56 cartridge, Vietnam.

If the U.S. were to become embroiled in another protracted jungle campaign, would the 5.56 Stoner design be the best choice of rifle, or is there something newer that would be a better option?

Please keep in mind that many of the failures of the original design we used in Vietnam have since been ironed out, and today's M16 is a very different rifle than the Vietnam vintage rifles. Also, the 5.56 cartridge has evolved as well.

KR

 

[BHP FAN]

I think I'd use what a lot of our forces were partial to...the AK 47.

 

[LaserSpot]

The cartridge and the weapon are two separate questions. The 5.56 is a very good submachine gun round. If we had to fight that war over again, it would still be a good choice for tearing up the jungle.

We would take greater advantage of night vision, lasers and sensor technology for night-fighting. Hanging more stuff on the gun makes it heavier and bulkier. We'd probably add suppressors too, making it longer. I think one of the futuristic looking plastic bullpup designs would be the weapon of choice. It could have a longer barrel then the M4, and with a suppressor still be a more compact weapon.

 

[C-grunt]

My 2005 tour in Iraq was at FOB Normandy and the AO was along the Diyala river. Lots of very thick "palm groves" wehre the Iranians, I mean insurgents, liked to hang out. The vegetation was very thick and sometimes needed machetes to get through. The M4/M16 worked well in these areas.

http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&gw=10&ll=34.004858,44.931335&spn=0.203782,0.521164&t=h&z=12

Dont know if this is gonna work but here is a Google map of the area. Lots of thick green.

Edit.. sorry its a bit off center. Move over to the left and zoom in around the Al-Miqdadiyah area.

Here is a video made by one of our guys who was training our Iraqi Army counterparts. Kinda a parody joke but shows the palm groves pretty well. Video also shows a good size vehicle IED and at the end when an F16 dropped a couple 500 lb-ers on a house that was rocketing the FOB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQB7s-fH8jE

 

[memphisjim]

m1 garand did a pretty good job
i recall accounts that it took out 3 at a time on narrow jungle trails

 

[Greg Koziol]

5.56 is a good round for the average solider especially on an m4 platform for several reasons

1. easy to learn and use
2. relatively light, good for use by men of all sizes... you don't have to be a hulk to use it
3. simple operation and functioning
4. powerful enough to get the job done for man sized targets at short and long ranges
5. Low recoil makes it easy to take follow up shots, doesn't beat up the shooter allowing them to be on the front lines for a while without having raw shoulders or excess lead build up in barrels from say a 12gauge shot gun

Limitations:
1. Although it is very fast and good enough for man sized targets, it's too small to have any knockdown powerful, the bullet is very small so it doesn't create any knockdown powerful like a .30-06 or heavy sniper rifles or a 12 gauge slug. Ak-47 has big advantage here because it is a bigger bullet
2. Difficulty penetrating body armor


I would saythey should use that new 6.8mm spc round... its comparable in power and velocity as a .270 winchester which gives the solider slightly more knockdown power and armor piercing punch

 

[bigalexe]

I have to comment to tell C-Grunt that video made my morning, now I feel energized to make it through my 4 hour class today.

As far as a Jungle Rifle, and this is coming from my sum total of 0 combat experience.
I'll start with Greg Koziol's suggestion because he nailed a few features
1. Lightweight
2. Easy to use
3. Low Recoil
4. Powerful enough to drop an enemy quickly

What would I add?
5. Compact design
6. Sturdy and simple design, as few parts as possible
7. Polymers
8. Semi-Automatic function, doesn't have to have FA removed completely but it needs to be able to fire 1-bullet per trigger pull if the need arises.
9. Weapon needs to be able to double as a club/sword with a bayonet and sturdy construction.

My suggestions center around the fact that jungles and humidity are a hostile environment for mechanical devices. The idea is to limit the number of parts that CAN break, and also limit the number of parts that are metal and can rust. My last two suggestions consider that a jungle fight is much closer to Urban Warfare than long-range, you may find it useful to conserve ammo and also may find a need to club the enemy when you find yourself 2 feet away from them unexpectedly.

What rifle would I choose? I have no idea but the AR-15 Platform probably has something that fit's the role.

 

[Tim the student]

My 2005 tour in Iraq was at FOB Normandy and the AO was along the Diyala river. Lots of very thick "palm groves" wehre the Iranians, I mean insurgents, liked to hang out. The vegetation was very thick and sometimes needed machetes to get through.

Me and C-Grunt stomped some of the same grounds - except I was at Scunion my first tour, and my second tour was at Warhorse/patrol bases outside of the wire in the DRV. Both those places are right on the edge of Baqubah. The M4 worked as well there in the palm groves as it did in the towns, which is pretty well. There would be times when a COM - (like lower sternum) shot would still allow a guy to be on his feet for far too long (IMO), but generally it did pretty well.

 

[Ghost503rd]

While "what" platform is up for debate do to several reasons I think the 5.56 is not the "best" we have to offer. Yes it has seen several improvements since the M193 of vietnam to the M855 and especially the MK262 of today. I believe its time for the 6.5's and 6.8's to step up as the new all purpose solution...

 

[devildog32713]

6.8 if we get prices on it down, it's a lot more expensive and not as plentiful as the 5.56, if we could use HP rounds instead of FMJ in warfare, 5.56 would be a lot more productive, excuse me, destructive.

 

[Bigfoot]

I would saythey should use that new 6.8mm spc round... its comparable in power and velocity as a .270 winchester which gives the solider slightly more knockdown power and armor piercing punch

I agree, and put it in a bullpup for better room clearing and vehicle transport. Saying that it's comparable to the 270 Win is stretching it though, it's closer to the 250 Savage in power and velocity.

 

[Maverick223]

The 5.56 is a very good submachine gun round.

Not hardly, the 5.56NATO is a intermediate cartridge, far from a submachine pistol cartridge.

I believe that the M2 carbine would serve well, as it did years ago. Other platforms to consider would be a good bullpup, or the M4.

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

I personally would go with a bullpup. Maybe an RFB, since the extra punch would be handy in heavy vegetation. That, or USAS-12.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

The cartridge and the weapon are two separate questions.

I agree, especially since the Stoner platform is now chambered in several different calibers. I hadn't intended them to be stuck together as one question, but to be thought of as two. I apologize for not being clearer.

I'm enjoying reading the responses from recent active duty guys, especially those who have had jungle combat or similar experiences.

For the record, I never served in the armed forces, but have been an avid shooter for over thirty years. As such, I'm always keen to read what the veterans have to say about the service weapons.

KR

 

[robby101]

For a relatively inexpensive upgrade to 6.8 SPC you have twice the gun. The M4 isn't the same M16 of my generation, they have, and continue to make modifications, making it a very reliable weapon. While I probably can never remove my doubts about the gun, based on my personal experience, the young men today, my son included, have complete faith in the platform. They deserve better than the .223.
Robby
Grunt, 101ST Airborne, RVN, 68-69'

 

[Greg Koziol]

Definately closer to a .250 savage then a .270 winchester. But not too far away from a .270 winchester.

The standard 6.8 spc pushed out a 115 grain bullet at 2700 fps

The regular ak-47 7.62 x 39 pushes out a 150 grain bullet at around 2100 fps so clearly any gun that is 6.8 spc is more devastating and flatter shooting than an ak-47

The the 5.56 will travel around 3000 fps if the bullet is 60 ish grains or so. So the 6.8spc has almost double the punch as the m4.

 

[skidooman603]

I say bring back the old .303 Jungle Carbine

 

[Maverick223]

So the 6.8spc has almost double the punch as the m4.

Not even close, the 6.8SPC has 40% more energy at best, and only about 20% more when compared to the 7.62x39mm. Contrary to popular belief the 5.56NATO is no slouch.

 

[Nine Lives]

I'm running around in Afghanistan right now, Army. I'm in transportation and we don't get nearly the level of gear as the more high speed guys but the M16 is generally fine when we're in villages or dismounted. The worst part is the GI mags, you're gambling with your life if you use those things IMO. In a jungle rifle I would think that .308 would be good to punch through all the dense vegetation, perhaps some new cartridge between the 5.56 or 76.2x51 would meet the demands for both power and still be able to be carried in decent quantity on long patrols.

 

[Ignition Override]

skidooman603 echos my idea.

"Joesalter.com" for LE "Jungle Carbines" and other classic guns/militaria.

 

[Grey Morel]

When I saw the words "modern jungle rifle", i was about to suggest a Steyr mannlicher "big Bore" with the HC kit... That's a 7 shot 450 Marlin (as opposed to 4 shots in other guns).

But I see your talking about tactical rifles :/ ... so I would suggest a 458 socom upper and a few mags worth of ammo to supplement the standard issue weapons.

 

[Greg Koziol]

our soldiers deserve the best.. 6.8mm is a step up from .223. It has all the good qualities of the .223 but has a little more power and only slightly more recoil. Good trade off in my opinion

 

[armoredman]

Sorry, couldn't help it, took this pic an hour ago, complete with goofy saying... Well, I would bet my life on it, but no jungles out here.



Honestly, I can see 7.62x39mm being a good jungle cartridge, shorter range and better "drill through" power on vegetation, at least according to the 'Nam vets I have talked to. As for what Grey Morel is talking about, I would want a heavy caliber, medium length barrel, solid stock, with the ability to have several repeat shots fast, especially if hunting something that outweighs me considerably.

 

[XxWINxX94]

say bring back the old .303 Jungle Carbine

+1 I think the AR system is fine and dandy, but they need to utilize a cartridge with more firepower. I say Uncle Sam should contract DPMS, Armilite, RRA, or one of those companies and tell them to come up with a lightweight version of the current AR10.

 

[Maverick223]

armoredman, I gotta' ask...is that a CZ canteen?

On a serious note...is that a 20rnd magazine? Gimme, gimme! Where did you find it?