Money buys accuracy?

[ArmedBear]

how to politely inform those who say that a $200 or $300 dollar rifle is just as good as X rifle know they are wrong...

You can't. This is what they want to believe, for whatever their reasons happen to be. They probably say the same about every other item. Some people simply can't say, "I don't want to sacrifice other things in order to own X, but I can see how X is nice." They have to insist that the cheapest version of something is "just as good" as the most expensive. It's something about human psychology. I'm not sure if it's uniquely American, but it is rather common in the US.

Not all expensive guns are expensive because they're more accurate than a good production rifle, either. Grade V English walnut, high polish, and extensive engraving don't add any accuracy, but they cost money. I know it's weird to some people, but there's more to a gun than accuracy, once you've passed a certain threshold. Lab alcohol will get you drunk, too...

 

[jpwilly]

^^^ I think Proverbs 23:9 sums it up - pretty much...

 

[Uncle Mike]

I think Proverbs 23:9 sums it up - pretty much...

Do not speak your words to a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words....

Totally agree with you Armedbear concerning....

They have to insist that the cheapest version of something is "just as good" as the most expensive. It's something about human psychology. I'm not sure if it's uniquely American, but it is rather common in the US.

All I know...it's not like that in some parts of Europe! They believe their stuff is the best, works best for them, and that my friend, is that! Well... it was that way while I did time there!

Hey...it's all just opinion anyway....and you cannot argue successfully with opinion!

Lab alcohol will get you drunk, too...

....hmmm, I have an idea! lol hehehehe

 

[Rembrandt]

....the OP's question stated nothing about shooters skill. I understand and whole heartedly agree with you regarding skill being required but the op wasn't asking about shooter skills.

Precisely the point, thank you for stating that better than I.

This theme holds true in many things, money buys speed, money buys horsepower, etc.......same holds true in many things from Olympic Bobsleds-to-firearms.

 

[Justin]

The bottom line is this: money will, generally speaking, buy a more accurate firearm.

If accuracy is the driving factor behind why you want to purchase a gun, you are not going to follow it up with "but I want to spend as little money as possible."

If you can't tell the difference in accuracy between a Ruger 10/22 and an Anschutz 2213, then you're better off with the Ruger, especially if you have no intention of competing in 50m smallbore matches. In which case, congratulations, you just got a gun at 10% of the cost of the Anschutz.

Modern factory guns built for the average consumer will, generally speaking, be possessed of an inherent level of mechanical accuracy to allow the average person to be pleased with the ability to adequately hit a target.

If that's all you're looking for, that's fine. Not every rifle has to hold up accuracy-wise on the 600 yard line, nor does every pistol have to make one ragged hole at 50 yards.

Perhaps the problem is that there is a lack of exactness in what most people are asking about. They simply say "I want an accurate rifle that costs x amount of dollars." without giving any real thought to just how accurate they need their rifle to be.

After all, if I start a thread saying "I want a rimfire rifle costing less than $300 that's accurate enough to shoot soda cans at 50 yards" what I'm asking for is completely different from "I want a rimfire rifle that will shoot the center out of a 50 meter smallbore target every time I pull the trigger, what does such a gun cost?" I'm asking two completely different things.

 

[Welding Rod]

I just do not uinderstand all the hoopla I keep seeing here about shooting a tight group. Fine for competition shooting if thats yoor bag, but for a humting rifle welllllllllll.......

That is becasue you are a hunter.

You need to realize a large part of the shooting community are shooters, not hunters. Of course some are both.

Shooters have a different frame of reference than someone who just shoots to kill big game at relatively close ranges.

Shooters don't go to the woods or range to shoot one shot and then go home. And shooters do own rifles that could be considered "hunting rifles", even though they don't hunt with them.

Personally I have no use for any rifle that won't do 1.5 MOA, and there are few I would be content with that don't shoot sub MOA, or sub 3/4, depending on the specific configuration.

However I understand why a hunter would think 1.5 perfectly adequate for that application.

 

[bracer]

To a point you get what you pay for. I started getting firearms in 1949 and have owned most all common brands. The most expensive brand owned are a pair of Cooper 57 M LVT 17HM2 and a 17HMR rifles. Next to the Cooper rifles are two Anschultz 22 rifles. Shooting off a bench rest I get better, that is smaller groups with them than any other brands of rimfire rifles I have owned but they were the less costly models. I have an old 30-30 Win that at best will shoot three inch 100 yard groups. Is it accurate , plenty accurate for shooting a deer at 100 yards. But for shooting prairie dogs ,unless I can put five round into a 1/2 inch group at 100 yards its not accurate. Most of the rifles I own have ben in a middle price range . But accuracy has ben improved by glass bedding the action, free floating the barrel, lapping the bolt locking lugs, recrowning the muzzle,and trimming off a bit off the magazine box. Adjusting the trigger does not improve the accuracy of the rifle but helps me shoot better groups.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

built just as well as a rifle costing 3x

This is different from "performing just as well"(for the intended use). Anyone familiar with manufacturing practices and materials would not make such an assumption. Now true a NOOB needs more instruction than someone my age and experience but only if he WANTS it will he be open to it. The old axiom of teaching an old dog new tricks ,as long as the old dog is happy with the way his tricks perform, is true.

 

[usmc1371]

For me as a non hand loader when I was looking for a varmint rifle that happend to be an AR and wanting the most accurate rifle I could find I had to spend a fair amount of money to get it.
I wanted an AR, I wanted .204 ruger, I wanted sub .5 moa with factory ammo, I spent 2,300$ and I got it. Plus 800$ for a scope that is up to the task. Les Baer super varmint with a lepold 4.5x14 vx3 LR. And I don't expect my ruger 300wm to shoot half inch but then elk are alot bigger than sage rats.

 

[berettashotgun]

Cubic DOLLARS prevails at the racetrack.
In competition it DOES MATTER.
Be it firearms or boats or cars.
Any game that utilizes equipment has minimum standards ($$$) for said equipment that simply cannot be ignored.
Never saw John Force lose to a stock 1978 Vega. Think you could beat him with your 2010 GT500 'stang?
You think you can beat David Tubbs with your CMMG bargain bin AR ? Even think you stand a snowball chance in hell of getting on the target with the first shot ?

Sometimes we all get caught up in the MOA vs. MOD ( minute of deer ) argument.

An individual's accuracy requirements are the same in competition, but relevant to the task at hand as defined by their needs.

 

[MCMXI]

How do you politely educate someone that their $200 plinker is NOT in the same class as a higher end more costly rifle?

Simple ... invite them to attend an F-Class match or 2-day precision rifle course with their rifle!! I have a $650 Savage 16 in 7mm-08 that is just fine for hunting most deer-sized game out to 300 yards or more but I certainly wouldn't use it in our F-Class "tactical" matches or the precision rifle classes that I've attended. I have a Remington 700 Ti Alaskan in .300 WSM which costs three times as much as the Savage, but the deer/elk won't know the difference!! Again, I also wouldn't use the Remington in either situation mentioned above.

Consider this "custom" rifle that anyone can put together for the costs shown:

Badger Ordnace M2008 short action $980
Krieger 26” fluted stainless 1:10 barrel (MTU contour) $420
AICS 1.5 SA stock $800
CG X-Treme Mod 22 two-stage trigger $350
Gunsmith fees:
Reaming “match” chamber, headspacing bolt, installing barrel $350
Painting $100
Incidentals $100

TOTAL: $3,100

So what do you get for $3,100? You get a 100% reliable, blueprinted, extremely accurate (sub 0.5 MOA), fast, rugged, practical rifle that will perform exceptionally well in F-Class, practical or tactical matches as well as at the range or hunting.

Action:
60° bolt throw with an an M16 style extractor that can be disassembled without tools. The precisely fitted and polished three-lug bolt along with the short throw ensures 100% reliable feeding during rapid fire drills e.g. 10 rounds in 60 seconds. The precision machining (blueprinting) ensures that the bolt face is square to the bore and zero binding of the bolt (speed and accuracy). Two integral locking lugs and flat base on the action guarantee no movement between the action and stock (accuracy, reliability, repeatability). The lug insert ring ensures the correct headspacing for ANY Badger SA bolt (ease of repair if bolt lost or broken). Integral (changeable) 20 MOA picatinny rail that is held in place with four screws AND two pins.

Barrel:
Barrel is polished (lapped) to a 16 micron finish. The barrel is very accurate (see the number of world records held by Krieger barrels) and won't foul even after 100 rounds. Negligible difference between POI of cold bore shots to warm/hot barrel shots. No change in POI as barrel heats up.

Stock:
A complete aluminum frame with removable (replaceable) skins that is very rigid, thermally stable and rugged. A 10-round detachable box magazine, adjustable LOP and cheekweld, multiple bipod and sling mounting options, folding stock option.

Trigger:
First and second stages adjustable from 0 to 3lbs with ball bearing pivot points.

Now add some good rings such as Seekins Precision 34mm ($100) and an excellent scope such as the Premier Reticles Heritage 3-15x50mm ($2000) and you have a total cost of $5,200. This is no small chunk of change but you will never outgrow this rifle (the caliber maybe). With some practice (prone with bipod) you will easily be able to put 10 rounds in 0.5 MOA in 60 seconds at 200 yards and 10 rounds in 0.5 MOA in 70 seconds at 300 yards. Try that with a $1000 .308 bolt action rifle let alone a $500 one.

 

[MCMXI]

One recurring theme in my post above is that money doesn't just buy accuracy, it can also buy speed, reliability, ruggedness, consistency and longevity. Things tend to break under stress (no pun intended) and unless you put yourself and your rifle under stress you most likely won't discover the weaknesses of your system. Going to the range and single feeding round after round from the bench, chatting to your buddies and generally dicking around as so many do (I see them week in and week out) and waiting for the barrel to cool isn't my idea of stress. These folks tend to think that their $500 rifle and their $300 scope are just as good as a well thought out $5,500 setup. Funny how none of them come out to the matches despite the open invitation.

Another really good test of your system is to let someone else use it and see how they do. I did that recently and a good friend who doesn't shoot very often and never shoots prone managed just over 0.5 MOA (five-shot group at 100 yards with my reloads) from a bipod. I was pleased with that particularly since he'd never shot that rifle before and he only shot five of my reloads.

 

[unit91]

I think the real answer here is "who cares?" If you love to shoot, and can shoot well, an expensive set-up is very reasonable. If shooting is a once a month (or season) semi-hobby for you, a $400 set-up is equally reasonable. There's no shame in either scenario, so long as we're all man enough to accept that not everyone has the same priorities I do -- and that's fine.

 

[AzBuckfever]

I would say that money can buy the equipment for accuracy....but as long as you have someone behind the rifle who has recoil anxiety (flinches), no trigger control, no stability, etc....it don't matter if you have a $5,000 rifle. You aint gonna shoot straight

 

[jmr40]

Lots of guys don't have the skills to shoot well. For them a $200 rifle truly is just as accurate as a $2000 rifle.

 

[AzBuckfever]

Exactly. I think the interpretation of you get what you pay for is misleading when it comes to firearms. For instance, a Barrett 50 cal. is over $2000.00; but you think you can shoot sub MOA with it I have a Marlin POS .22 that was built by Sears or some crap....and I'll bet I can shoot sub MOA with it

 

[Justin]

And again we go right back to the sterotype of "the rich guys have the toys but not the skill" vs. "Bubba doesn't have the toys, but does have the skill."

 

[AzBuckfever]

Funny how the rich boys always hire the Bubbas to do their hunting for them; aside from there being no target painted on the side of their game; just another day at the range for the rich boy. Perfect shot, perfect distance, perfect whether Always amazes me when they show up with their rifles that they purchased for a couple thousand....even more when I could find the same rifle for half what they bought it for I've even had a guy or two in passing tell me that it'll be the "first" time they've shot their rifle.

 

[jl1966]

It seems some are trying to compare their stock savage hunting gun to a custom bench gun. If this be the case, no, there is no comparison to be had there. However, it is my experience that accuracy wise a stock Savage or Remington will be more accurate than an out of the box Weatherby or Browning, even though the first two cost less. If we begin to apply money in equal amounts to these guns will the costlier two eventually become more accurate than the cheaper two. If you buy a $3000 bench gun and spend the difference on improving the Savage, how big a difference will there be in the two at the end. One wonders.

 

[Justin]

Well, azbuckfever, I suppose you're to be commended on your skill in selling hunting trips to empty-headed idiots who are waving fistfuls of cash at you.

It's rather a pity, though, that your posts really don't have much of anything to do with the topic at hand.

 

[twofifty]

I don't have much money so my firearms are pretty ordinary, but accurate enough for the games I play. What money I have gets spent on practice time and ammo, and on match fees/travel expenses.

The rifles are now starting to do what my mind tells them to do. The handgun, on the other hand, still has a mind of its own.

;-)

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Most guns no matter what the price are more accurate than the shooters who use them.

People love to blame accuracy issues on the fact that the gun is cheap when in reality most of the blame can be attributed to the human factor.

I can't even begin to tell you how 180 degrees wrong that is, at least in my experience. I used to think that too, that it was just me - dammit why do I suck so badly. Turns out I didn't...when I got some *accurate* guns, and find the *right* ammo for the gun, it made accuracy many many times easier.

I'd say that more often than not, it's one of the other two legs of the tripod (i.e. ammo or gun, not shooter) that is the cause of bad accuracy (5-6 MOA or more). BTDT, got the t-shirt.

Good rifles make a HUGE difference. You've got to have the skill also, but many who spend time behind a trigger have this skill to varying degrees. But you've GOT to have a good rifle, and ammo that it likes.

 

[scchokedaddy]

missed the point

Welding Rod, Armed Bear I apolize, I believe I missed the point the first time arouind. After rereading op and all comments I see what you are saying. Yes I do realize that I am only a hunter and do not have the desire to shoot competition, so that puts a different spin on my first opinon. But I thought maybe I missed the original issue, and I did by fourty miles!!! Sorry my other post was so far off. (and unneccessary). I do wish someday to have a custom not competition rifle, just don't know what I want. You guy's give a person like me plenty to think about. I really do enjoy learning from reading what ya'll have to say. I used to want a Jarrett, but have kinda changed my mind after never seeing him mentioned here. Seems the best way is to figger out what I want to do first, then ask here for advice. And yes after shooting my friends rifles while devoloping loads, it dang sure does feel good to shoot those groups of 1/2-1 inch. Yea ya'll are about to convionce me to quit dragging my heels and go for it. Last but not least you can't convince someone you have to show them the difference. If that don't work then don't lose any sleep over it as you did try. Hunters need to remember that the quality they have now is because ya'll allready did all the work, and made manufacturers take note, i.e. research and devolping loads as well as calibers. The many benifit from the few. Thanks for not flaming my sideways post. Good Luck and Straight Shooting

 

[AzBuckfever]

Well, azbuckfever, I suppose you're to be commended on your skill in selling hunting trips to empty-headed idiots who are waving fistfuls of cash at you.

It's rather a pity, though, that your posts really don't have much of anything to do with the topic at hand.

Never said I was a guide....just talk to a lot of stupid people with expensive rifles It's rather a pity that you post the same comment twice.

My statement was no matter what type of rifle you have, if the person behind it can't shoot, nothing is going to be accurate. The equipment improves accuracy, agreed, but lets not assume that just because you buy a $3,500 .338 Edge; that you're going to be able to crank a round out to 1500 yds. and be accurate.

 

[Dookie]

I always think of firearm accuracy just like drag racing
You have a couple of choices buy or build.
First choice, buy. You just bought a 12 second car. Done.
Second choice, build.
You just bought a 17 second car. It is fairly easy to get it to 14 seconds. Now you have to buy a complete suspension, intake, exhaust, engine, tires, and lots of meters. I had a friend who builds race engines, he told me that anything under 14 seconds is a grand a second and gets more expensive the faster you want to go.