Money buys accuracy?

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I built my 12 second (in a quarter mile) 289 Ford in 1974. It turned consistant times and did it without balancing or blueprinting. It would turn in lower times when one of the more experienced(re:better) drivers would put it through it's paces.
 
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This little story kind of adresses the good gun, bad shooter thing. I shoot PPC with some success, not an expert or master class but I do O.K. in my class. I also shoot matches loosely based on IDPA rules, do O.K. there too. Recently a nice older couple has started to show up in the shooting circles I travel in. They both have very high end guns and equipment, they just cant shoot well. We all try to help them, mostly advising them to practice, but you can just feel them searching for that thing they can buy that will let them bypass the practice and training, and go right to cleaning clocks in the match. I was telling the guy recently how to practice for a faster reload, and he was fussing about his mag holder, which is actually something similar to a dump pouch with 12 .45 mags in it. Remember I said "loosely" based on IDPA. I really like the equipment they use, but would not trade the limited skill I have manage to accrue through practice and professional and personal training.;)
 
Lots of guys don't have the skills to shoot well. For them a $200 rifle truly is just as accurate as a $2000 rifle.

I resemble that remark... :)

How do you think I feel, I dont have the money OR the skill... lol... Oh... and I am a terrible hunter too :)
 
It used to be true that money buys accuracy, perhaps. But not today when off-the-shelf Savage, T/C, and Marlin bolt guns are shooting sub MOA groups with factory ammo. I have fully benched a Savage 111 ($498) right out of the box with just a couple swabs down the barrel and gotten sub MOA groups with Winchester Power Points. I have seen someone else break out his new Thompson/Center Venture ($429) and shoot a half inch group after cleaning it for the first time. And everyone and their dog is shooting Marlin XS/XL bolt guns sub MOA with factory fodder. I spent less than ten dollars in Devcon and aluminum bar stock to stiffen my XS7 and bed the recoil lug and it will hold MOA to 600 yards with factory ammo. My shooting partner shot a 3/4" group at 200 yards yesterday with Georgia Arms match ammo ($19 a box!).

So I'd have to say, based on my personal recent experience, money no longer buys accuracy. Not even close. And this makes it difficult for manufacturers to continue to justify higher prices for bolt guns when Savage, T/C, and Marlin are coming out of the box shooting more accurately and more reliably than many $1200+ rifles (Kimber and Dakota comes to mind here. Sorry.)

It's a good time to be a poor gun nut. :D
 
I'm with Dr Tad on this! I've shot a lot of rifles over the years and rifles that cannot hold a group are traded unless they are collectible. My first precision rifle was a DPMS AR-15 that I purchased over 5 years ago. It will shoot even inexpensive ammo into 1" groups and better ammo into 1/2" groups. Until then most of my firearms were Mil Surplus rifles shooting Mil Surplus Ammo. I find precision much more fun to practice with because I can call the fliers so when I screw up I can see it in the group and verifly. Precision is a Great Training aid! For that same reason precision 22LR's and 17's at much closer distances can be the best training behind a trigger you'll ever get.
 
Money does buy accuracy, and some other important stuff you wont normally get on a production unit. But the void between accuracy gotten from big dollars of investment and what you can get in a production rifle for small dollars is greatly narrowing by today's standards.

30 years ago you would pay upwards to a thousand dollars to get a rifle capable of accuracy on par with 4 out of 5 of today's production firearms...which STILL do not cost a thousand dollars!
 
Snakum said:
And everyone and their dog is shooting Marlin XS/XL bolt guns sub MOA with factory fodder. I spent less than ten dollars in Devcon and aluminum bar stock to stiffen my XS7 and bed the recoil lug and it will hold MOA to 600 yards with factory ammo. My shooting partner shot a 3/4" group at 200 yards yesterday with Georgia Arms match ammo ($19 a box!).

:what: Just imagine what the Marlin could do with reloads!!

I suggest that you and your XS7 head off to the nearest 600 yard F-Class match and put everyone to shame. You'll cause quite a ruckus I'm sure with your 8lb (?) set up since you should have no problem placing all 20 rounds in the 10-ring (1 MOA) in 20 minutes right? I can just see those poor guys and girls with their $$$$ 18lb rifles being put to shame by your little Marlin. Even better is that you don't even need to waste any time reloading. Based on the data you posted HERE ... you can just grab a box of your .308 du jour and get to work. PLEASE post a video on YouTube showing the whole humiliating experience! You're going to single-handedly turn F-Class on its head.

Once you've done that, I suggest that you head over to New Mexico to clean up at Zak's steel challenges. Those poor deluded souls wander all over hell's creation with their "heavy" $$$$ rifles and optics. Little did they know that all they needed was a $200 Marlin and a Redfield scope. You'll be able to buy three or four more Marlins with your winnings!

:)
 
I just do not uinderstand all the hoopla I keep seeing here about shooting a tight group. Fine for competition shooting if thats yoor bag, but for a humting rifle welllllllllll....... If the weapon shoots "cold shot" where you aim it then your deer,elk or whatever is dead.

Depends on what you're hunting. My .220 Swift is consistently .7 MOA at 200 yards with the load I've worked up. And it needs to be. Praire dogs are small targets. I'm not concerned with cold bore, since that'll only be the first of dozens of targets, so if I miss, oh well. And it happens; I just had this rifle out on Saturday to check zero for the coming season. First shot of the first group was almost an inch higher than the other four that made a single hole at 100 yards.

With a big game rifle, OTOH, cold bore accuracy is very important, since target value is higher and you may only have one shot.

Either way, a more precise firearm can only benefit the hunter. It can never hinder him. A better rifle will have less deviation between cold bore and follow up shots.
 
"Funny how the rich boys always hire the Bubbas to do their hunting for them"

Maybe it's just that where you live nobody else is desparate enough to work for them except the Bubbas. :) I don't know anybody that has ever used a paid guide.

John
 
Rembrandt asked:

Every week seems there are 3-4 threads that have a common theme....

"I want an accurate rifle......but can't spend any money", make a recommendation.

When someone suggests a gun that's more costly than the average, posters invariably respond that their $300 Blah Blah shoots just as well as those overpriced priced rifles.

The frustration with these posts is that my definition of accuracy and those asking the question are apples and oranges.....clarity of what the poster expects the rifle to do would be helpful.

How do you politely educate someone that their $200 plinker is NOT in the same class as a higher end more costly rifle?

Oh man. Another one of these threads. I always get so confused, ‘cuz I think I’m at THR, but look around and think I might be sitting smack-dab in the middle of a proctologist’s office based on some of the posts. :D

I don’t know why the Hades folks buy what they do. Butt it ain’t just shoe-ters and rye-fulls. Now, when I was still a high-priced edjamakaatur, and fixin’ to dew my Pee.ah Dee, I had myself 3 Rolex watches. I also had my old Casio plastic watch that I wore to instruct Taekwondo. Damnedest thing was, that old Casio kept better time than my Rolexes. I’s see’d folks buyin’ 750 HP Mustangs, and they’s never had race driving lessons. My wife of 25 years asked me to buy her a Viking gas range. I assured her that if she ever learns to cook, I promptly will make the purchase. Trust me, it’s painful obvious that woman ain’t never took no cookin’ classes. I see’d a fella what bought himself a nice Weatherby Mark V Deluxe in .378 Wea Mag. He shot 3 rounds and he didn’t want no more, as he literally rolled backwards off-a that bench! He walked over and asked that fire the rest of the rounds to sight-it in for him.

Now, as to how to edjamakate ‘em, I suspect they’s a lotta Walter Mitty in a whole lotta folks. They have delusional fantasies of grandeur that if they just buy a better rifle, a bigger, faster bullet that they’ll shoot better. Now, when I was still actively instructing Hunter Safety, I used to ask folks what they intend to shot? Where? At what distance? I can’t understand the fella who would tote an F-Class rifle with 42X scope into the woods for deer hunting. At a certain point, the intended equipment gots’ta to match the intended event. Now all o’ yall’s F-class rifles won’t do you much good on the family farm, ridin’ “shotgun” in the tractor cab, ‘cept for the 4 or 5 fives you’ll have to dispatch a critter or 3. And if you gotta fire that high-priced gadget 10 times to hit 3 targets, we ain’t gonna be too impressed regardless the cost, $200.00 or $2,000.00!

Sorry to wander into the wrong office fellas. Any o’ ya'll see’d my therapist?!

GeeKnow
 
JohnBT
Member

Maybe it's just that where you live nobody else is desparate enough to work for them except the Bubbas. I don't know anybody that has ever used a paid guide.

John

I refer to Bubbas in a general sense of those who are willing to do the work themselves for the hunt....and yes, where I live and hunt (Arizona - Hunt AZ & UT), there are A LOT of rich folk wanting to pay the "Bubbas" to do the work for them. Lots of horror stories are well about bad guides and clients for that matter. But, the clients normally show up with the Swarovski binos, the $2,000 rifle that was sighted in by a gunsmith, etc. I try to avoid them if I can, but they're not hard to identify when you see 'em.

Thread is getting hijacked again. I stick with my opinions....you can buy accurate equipment but can money buy accuracy, no. Unless you're referring to shooting lessons :)

A proven point to the bias opinions and also educated opinions of some are a comparison of Remington vs. Savage. Most of the forums you search when people compare the 2 as to "which one to buy"; people say the Savage is more accurate, and a better gun; but Remington costs more :)
 
Geno said:
I had myself 3 Rolex watches. I also had my old Casio plastic watch that I wore to instruct Taekwondo. Damnedest thing was, that old Casio kept better time than my Rolexes.

Oh great, not only do we have to endure the endless car analogies ... now we have to suffer through watch analogies too. I suggest you Google CHRONOMETER and then go look up a schematic for a quartz crystal LCD watch! Education's a bitch!!

:rolleyes:
 
I haven't noticed much difference in accuracy between a custom $2000+ rifle or a $300-500 savage, the only difference I see is the quality in how they're made, big difference there. That said I'll stick with savage, they work, they shoot, what more do you really need
 
Can money buy accuracy? For production rifles, probably not, and if it does, the difference will be minimal, you are typically paying for better fit and finish. But you will have a much harder time building a 1/2 MOA rifle for $1000 than you would if you spent $3000. Does that mean the shooter will automatically shoot 1/2 MOA groups, probably not unless the skill is already there, but it may improve the shooter's ability by providing a better trigger, and/or a better stock. You can spend all the money in the world on a rifle, but if you aren't capable of shooting tiny groups, you won't shoot tiny groups.
 
1858:

Guess it must be, cuz seem to have missed the irony hidden by intent in my joke: Rolex created the quartz watch, not Timex, or Casio, etc. Rolex simply didn't submit the copyrights/patents, etc. So, along come the Japanese and they do so. A few years later, we got Timex. Sometimes even labor-intensive hand-work is less precise than high-technology...witness the Surgeon rifles' quality, due to their obsessive attention to tolerances. :) Now there's a fine shooting instrument!

My point is, lots of people make purchases that they don't need, due to name, or Walter Mittyism or keepin' up with the Joneses. If you feel too uptight, you can attend the anger-management sessions next door with me. :D

Geno
 
Geno said:
If you feel too uptight, you can attend the anger-management sessions next door with me.

I'll be over shortly ... but in the meantime, I don't see anything analogous between a chronometer from Rolex and a quartz crystal LCD from Casio and a $3,000 custom rifle to a $200 one from Marlin or Savage. The analogy doesn't work for me since it compares two very different technologies. I can see how someone with a $20 Timex won't necessarily see the worth of a less accurate Rolex (chronometer) costing a few hundred times as much. For the record, I don't own a Rolex although if I had $7,000 to spare, I'd buy a GMT II in a heartbeat. I do own an LCD Timex (Ironman)that I use at the gym and during F-Class matches.

:)
 
1858:

Wee auhl kneed two git edjamakated sum tyme. Tha-que four inn-four-ming mi. :) Wee pee-ahc-dees ain't real brite.

Gee-Know
 
You'll have to excuse 1858, his reading comprehension ain't quite up to snuff.


I suggest that you and your XS7 head off to the nearest 600 yard F-Class match and put everyone to shame. You'll cause quite a ruckus I'm sure with your 8lb (?) set up since you should have no problem placing all 20 rounds in the 10-ring (1 MOA) in 20 minutes right? I can just see those poor guys and girls with their $$$$ 18lb rifles being put to shame by your little Marlin. Even better is that you don't even need to waste any time reloading. Based on the data you posted HERE ... you can just grab a box of your .308 du jour and get to work. PLEASE post a video on YouTube showing the whole humiliating experience! You're going to single-handedly turn F-Class on its head.

Once you've done that, I suggest that you head over to New Mexico to clean up at Zak's steel challenges. Those poor deluded souls wander all over hell's creation with their "heavy" $$$$ rifles and optics. Little did they know that all they needed was a $200 Marlin and a Redfield scope. You'll be able to buy three or four more Marlins with your winnings!

It is what it is. Every time the gun was fired there were four or five other shooters watching, one of whom posts here. If you're pissed because you spent $2000 on a weapon that won't shoot any better than an off the shelf Savage, don't take it out on me. And if you don't like the thread ... don't read it.
 
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