Montana House of Representatives votes to ignore Federal Gun Laws

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I cited Wright, Rossi & Daly because of the primary conclusion they reached in their studies: No gun control law ever passed in the State of Florida had ever affected the rates of violent crimes. In their studies, numerous interviews with felons in Florida's Raiford Prison brought out no concern as to difficulty of acquiring guns after release.

I am leery of course of making policy judgements based on information provided by incareted prisoners but thats just an aside ...I have read that study (or somewthing similar) just as I have read studies purporting ( and I use the word purporting every time I see a statistical study) to demonstrate the opposite..... you may wish to comaper for example, pre Sullivan law and post sullivan law gun crime rates in NYC.....

But Art, your owh statement sets forth that the law is not futile, viz:

What's changed over the decades is the source of said firearms, commonly known as "the street".

If we make a policy judgment that violnt criminals should not be permitted to legally posses firearms, the mere fact that they violate such a prohibtion does not render the law futile (or indeed unconstitional)...In fact, violent criminals used to EASILY and WITHOUT SANCTION purchase firearms from legitimate sources...now of course they cannot....

Of course they can steal em, but thats an offense in and of itslf....

Are you suggesting that all laws be rated as to how many times they are violated......

WildfingershurtAlaska
 
Doesn't the (f)utility of the law in question swing on its intent?

If we aim to show by passing "felon in possession" laws merely that we're "ag'in it" without a reasonable belief that the existence of the law will prevent it from happening, aren't we just passing a law to make us feel good?

I mean, if the only practical use of the law is to add another charge after they've gone and committed what would be almost implicitely a more serious crime than possession (armed robbery, assault w/DW, homicide etc.) anyway, then what's the real point of the law in the first place?

Let's simplify and just criminalize actual actions that directly hurt others.
 
I am convinced that both WildAlaska and DMF work for the US Department of Propaganda. Why else would they spend their spare time reading and exchanging with those who love liberty? Based on their expressed views, unless they were being paid to do otherwise, wouldn't they prefer to hang out at some other kind of site?
 
So using that anaylsis, we should end the laws about underage drinking, drugs, speeding.....

To be consistent with that line of thought? Yep.

And I think reality would bear it out as not particularly harmful.

"Reckless driving" (violating rights of way, tailgating etc.) is inherently dangerous, driving fast but properly on a well-maintained highway in daylight is not. Besides, DOT studies show that traffic tends to flow at a more or less safe rate based on road conditions in the absense of controls, kinda like an invisible highway hand. It is the chronic speeders/bad drivers who get in the majority of wrecks repeatedly, just like most criminality. Penalize them for the effects of their actions, don't make a mockery of the law by codifying common sense.

Children drinking is a family matter, until the kids commit crimes due to that drinking. Death due to over-consuming happens and will continue to happen despite the law. Until the kids commit crimes due to drinking, it isn't "societies" problem. I think the European example would bear that out in our culture as well, over time. I drank underage and didn't hurt myself or others, any more than I do now.

Drugs is a horse well and truly beaten and I'm sure you could give my argument as well or better than I can, agree or not. :D

Yep, I'm for penalization, not futile "prevention". The nuts, idiots and bad guys are gonna do what they want, to try to preempt them with something that can't be enforced until after the fact is a waste of time.
 
I am convinced that both WildAlaska and DMF work for the US Department of Propaganda. Why else would they spend their spare time reading and exchanging with those who love liberty? Based on their expressed views, unless they were being paid to do otherwise, wouldn't they prefer to hang out at some other kind of site?

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Damn I wanna smoke some of that!

But now back to normalcy....at least we aint boycotting Benchmade knives bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Yep, I'm for penalization, not futile "prevention".

OK......are there ANY prevention laws you would support then..since bad folks gonna do what they want anyway??? Are you saying that NO prevention laws work???

WildwheresspiffAlaska
 
Give me a bit, but off the top of my head I can't really think of any.

Why? Got a "zinger" in mind? ;)

I guess since I'm such a believer in personal responsibility, I really have a problem trying in principle to protect people from themselves. Which in practice is all preventative laws do, since those so inclined (or so irresponsible) will just evade or ignore them as they see fit.

I hate to say it but the law enforcement and incarceration effort and cash dedicated to prevention type laws would probably be better spent on education campaigns and swifter, surer enforcement of "real" offenses.

If we're gonna go for a "nanny" model that would be more consistent. Verbal instruction (not black letter law warning) to all and spankings for those who offend. Plus if you gives the "whys" of why certain behaviour is foolish you can win more hearts and minds long term. Intelligent people don't want to hear "don't do this for your own good" they want to know why it is in "their own good".

Witness the anti-smoking campaign, for good or ill, bad facts or no, those who now continue to smoke can't later claim "I didn't know it was bad for me".
 
Carebear for President :).....

Way to knock that trick question out of the park ;) .... Do minor in possession laws stop youths from obtaining alcohol and cigarettes? :neener:
 
Prevention laws are not bad simply because they're prevention measures. Preventing crime is a noble goal. The laws are bad because they infringe on a wide array of legal activities in order to stop a small amount of illegal activity, and because there's no clear link between the two. Buying a gun from a FFL and going on a shooting spree in a school are activities that inhabit two completely different worlds. Trying to stop a shooting spree by vetting gun buyers is not a good strategy, and history proves that it is not effective.

WA, there is no basis for these laws. They violate the second amendment, our rights, and they simply don't work... at least there are no reliable studies that conclude that gun laws prevent violent crime. There is neither a philosophical nor utilitarian reason for these laws. The only rationale in support is the "guns are bad" line, and I don't think any of us believe that. It might be the basis for VPC and BradyBunch propaganda, but it doesn't fly outside of the peacenik neo-liberal nitwit community.
 
WA, there is no basis for these laws. They violate the second amendment, our rights, and they simply don't work... at least there are no reliable studies that conclude that gun laws prevent violent crime. There is neither a philosophical nor utilitarian reason for these laws. The only rationale in support is the "guns are bad" line, and I don't think any of us believe that. It might be the basis for VPC and BradyBunch propaganda, but it doesn't fly outside of the peacenik neo-liberal nitwit community.
The answer is found, I believe, in an article by a Mr. Levine, the salient portion of which I have provided below.

WHICH KIND OF REPUBLIC?

So how could the United States of America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, have sunk so low as to submit to these demagogues, to feel obligated to "save" its citizens from an everyday item sold here regularly for the past hundred years, and in common use for the past fifty? The answer can be found in the most basic philosophical underpinnings of our country.

From its establishment in 1789, the American republic itself, as well as its promises of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, have meant different things to different of its citizens. The most important of these differences can be traced to two fundamentally different and largely irreconcilable philosophical outlooks.

Two centuries ago, these differences were widely recognized and understood, because they very nearly prevented the Constitutional Convention from reaching any conclusion at all. Today the differences are just as deep, and just as pervasive, but most of us tend to see them only in regard to specific contemporary issues, rather than as more general matters of philosophy. The conflicts over such divisive issues as abortion, gun control, drug prohibition, affirmative action, environmental protection, and industrial policy can never be settled by reasoned debate, because the adherents to each side of these issues do not share a common philosophy. Instead the resolution of these issues will be dictated, unsatisfactorily to all, by the naked exercise of political power: the tyranny of popular or Congressional majorities inflamed by media hysteria, or the arbitrary absolutism of the courts.

The two irreconcilable views of the nature of our republic that underlie these issues today have been a part of the republic since the beginning. A clear exposition of these two views is set forth by University of Alabama professor Forrest McDonald in his 1985 book, Novus Ordo Seclorum, The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution. On pages 70-74 he explains the differences between what he calls puritanical republicanism, on the one hand, and agrarian republicanism, on the other. First, however, he elucidates their common ground.

He says that in a true republic, a system of "rule by the public," the vital principle is public virtue (from virtus, manly strength). In Professor McDonald's words, public virtue "entailed firmness, courage, endurance, industry, frugal living, strength, and above all, unremitting devotion to the weal of the public's corporate self, the community of virtuous men. It was at once individualistic and communal: individualistic in that no member of the public could be dependent upon any other and still be reckoned a member of the public; communal in that every man gave himself totally to the good of the public as a whole. If public virtue declined, the republic declined, and if it declined too far, the republic died.

"Philosophical historians had worked out a regular life cycle, or more properly death cycle, of republics. Manhood gave way to effeminacy, republican liberty to licentiousness. Licentiousness, in turn, degenerated into anarchy, and anarchy inevitably led to tyranny." Thus far did the two republican philosophies agree.

"What distinguished puritanical republicanism from the agrarian variety was that the former sought a moral solution to the problem of the mortality of republics (make better people), whereas the latter believed in a socioeconomic-political solution (make better arrangements).

"Almost nothing was outside the purview of puritanical republican government, for every matter that might in any way contribute to strengthening or weakening the virtue of the public was a thing of concern to the public -- a res publica -- and it was subject to regulation by the public. [Puritan] Republican liberty was totalitarian: one was free to to do that, and only that, which was in the interest of the public, the liberty of the individual being subsumed in the freedom or independence of his political community."

This totalitarian view of a fragile and tottering republic, one that would be undermined by the slightest private indiscretion, one that could only be preserved by an aggressive policing of every individual's private morality in every minute particular, predominated in Puritan New England, especially Massachusetts. It also found favor in the areas of the South, especially parts of Virginia, where the evangelical Great Awakening took hold. Most southerners, however, adhered to the agrarian view of republicanism.

In the agrarian view, again quoting McDonald, "Virtue meant manliness, and manliness meant independence... the necessary independence could be had only if a man owned enough land, unencumbered by debts or other obligations, to provide himself and his family with all their material needs; and this independence... was in the last analysis measured by his ability to bear arms and use them in his own quarrels... In sum, ownership of the land begat independence, independence begat virtue, and virtue begat republican liberty... In the southern scheme of things, private virtue, in the rigorous sense in which it was defined by the Yankees, was unnecessary to the maintenance of republican liberty. The arch agrarian John Taylor of Caroline [1753-1824] put it succinctly: 'The more a nation depends for its liberty on the qualities of individuals, the less likely it is to retain it. By expecting public good from private virtue, we expose ourselves to public evils from private vices.'"

If Taylor were to return today, he would nod sagely at our drug "crisis" and say, "end the prohibition and you will end the crisis." The puritans among us (currently a majority, especially in the mass media) would gasp with horror, and predict the imminent demise of our republic.

McDonald continues, "Agrarian republicanism was therefore essentially negative in the focus of its militance: it demanded vigilance only in regard to certain kinds of men and institutions which, as its adherents viewed history, had proved inimical or fatal to liberty... standing armies, priests, bishops, aristocrats, luxury, excises, speculators, jobbers, paper shufflers, monopolists, bloodsuckers, and monocrats..."

Agrarian republicans, in theory anyway, viewed their republic as well-founded and durable. The puritan view of a fragile and tottering republic baffled them. Private morality, or a lack thereof, simply had no effect on an agrarian republic's overall vitality. The only kind of behavior that could endanger their republic was a calculated self-serving attack on one of its fundamental institutions: private property, equality before the law, free markets, the right to keep and bear arms.

Puritan republicans, by contrast, view every sin, indeed every temptation to sin, as dire threats to their republic. Their response in every case is simple and direct. First ban the sin. Then, just to be on the safe side, ban the temptation, too.

This is not at all a left-versus-right issue. Militant puritans dominate the extremes on both sides. Those on the right who would ban abortion and those on the left who would ban hand guns both aspire to a puritan police state that will regulate the behavior of their neighbors and themselves -- although puritan leaders often exempt themselves from their own rules.

An agrarian, by contrast, might say, "if you oppose abortion, don't have one; if you oppose hand guns, don't own one; if you oppose drugs, don't use them. He is willing to live and let live, unless someone attacks him or his republic.

For the full text of the above article by Mr. Levine, go to http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/swbl-leg.txt
 
Seriously, though, how much to do you guys get paid for hanging out here?

I volunteer, do it as a public service so that gun owners dont get a bad name :neener: Now run along and boycott somebody.....

WA, there is no basis for these laws. They violate the second amendment, our rights, and they simply don't work... at least there are no reliable studies that conclude that gun laws prevent violent crime. There is neither a philosophical nor utilitarian reason for these laws.

Assumptions you are making:

1. The laws are unconstitional (and I assume we are talking about felon on possesion laws of laws precluding the insane)...this has I think already been decided as being unconstituional, yes....must check.....

2. They simply dont work.....now you mean to tell me that you have statistical of other evidence demonstrating that they dont...?

3. Philosophical? depends on your philosophy I guess.....

Got a "zinger" in mind?

Well actually each and every law relating to public morality (absent forcible violence) is a "preventative law" is it not...consistency wise, all laws relating to consumption of alchol and cigarettes, drugs, display of porn, prostituion, incest, paedophilia ad nauseum should also be ditched, neh?

WildnoticehowyathrowspankinintherecarberrydonthurtmyspiffAlaska
 
Well actually each and every law relating to public morality (absent forcible violence) is a "preventative law" is it not...consistency wise, all laws relating to consumption of alchol and cigarettes, drugs, display of porn, prostituion, incest, paedophilia ad nauseum should also be ditched, neh?

Wrongoreeno. The last two, and several others continuing down that vein, can be shown objectively and subjectively to involve both mental and physical harm to others than the perpetrator. They need not involve necessarily classic "forcible" violence to involve actual psychic and physical violence to an otherwise innocent, not competent to consent, second party.

Public display of porn can be covered under zoning restrictions as it intrudes personal choice into the public domain thus into the just regulatory power of the community, and prostitution's public activity (on city streets any way) can be regulated much as any business activity can, again due to private intrusion into public spaces.

careIcanthurthimnowthatheowesmemoneyandthoughnotalawyerIamtechnicallyajusticemajorbear
 
he last two, and several others continuing down that vein, can be shown objectively and subjectively to involve both mental and physical harm to others than the perpetrator.

Objectively and subjectively to who? Based on what? I could find you research that demonstrates that a sexaully active lifestyle is good for children...historically, what was the age of consnt in say...Georgian England?

Public display of porn can be covered under zoning restrictions as it intrudes personal choice into the public domain thus into the just regulatory power of the community, and prostitution's public activity (on city streets any way) can be regulated much as any business activity can, again due to private intrusion into public spaces.

OK so now you pick and chose what the communtiy should justly regulate? Simply becasue it imposes personal choice into the public domain....whats the differecne then in barring the wearing of a gun in public?

And I assume you agree prostituion should be legal as long as its not in public?

By the way did ya know the US homiced rate was higher in 1919 (the halcyon days of no gun control) than it was in 2000?

Wilddontgivemethisjusticemajorcrapyouareastinkingtoolofthecapitalistbanker-exploitersAlaska
 
I don't doubt you could find some studies, it's possible to find a study to support almost any position (go science!), but, as in jurisprudence, there exists a commonly-held degree of reputable sociological scholarship, peer-reviewed and subject to repeated testing, that clearly states incest and pedophilia are bad for children. (no, I'm not going to go dig up cites, we'll stay in the "my opinion"/theoretical arena if you don't mind)

As far as community regulation goes, yep, there's a line I draw, based solely on my opinion on what falls under just regulation and not. Yes, this does mean I believe there are limitations on public behaviour that meet Constitutional standards. I just apparently draw my constitutional lines a bit closer to the "anarchal" side than you claim to (though I think you play the adversary's advocate for the fun of it sometimes). Anyway, danger is my middle name, must be my youth. :neener:

The least amount of regulation that will ensure that (my) level of acceptable risk (speaking again to purely criminal laws) is where you'll find me.

In the end, that's why we vote, so we can all agree on about where that level is. I happen to think most people nowadays are pansies who need to toughen up a bit and accept responsibility for their own actions, (and be empowered to do so) thus I'd like to let slip the nanny's apron strings and see how it pans out.

And, remember, I'm looking to lease a convertible sports car here shortly. :evil:

carewillingtoolofthemilitaryindustrialcomplexaswellbear
 
Wildalaska,

You've thrown down a gauntlet I can't let go unchallenged. The major part of the discussion seems to be pedophilia. Screw your research. You can find research to support whatever you please. To quote Mark Twain (I think), "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." The bottom line is sexual activity is VERY BAD for children. My dad works in a chemical dependency treatment center and a lot of the people he counsels have been the victims of pedophilia, incest, or both. Also, someone close to me was molested in a non "forcible violence" situation. Trust me IT'S A BAD THING.

Georgian England? What a red herring of an argument. A lot of things used to be legal. About that time slavery was legal too. Maybe not in England (when did they ban slavery?), but for sure in many other places. I don't see you advocating a return to slavery. On the other hand you are defending pedophilia, either as a gadfly or on general principles, I'm not sure. But that is about the best argument I would expect from someone trying to defend it.
 
On the other hand you are defending pedophilia, either as a gadfly or on general principles, I'm not sure.

Umm are we reading the same thread...I surely dont recall defending paedophilia.....

As far as community regulation goes, yep, there's a line I draw, based solely on my opinion on what falls under just regulation and not. Yes, this does mean I believe there are limitations on public behaviour that meet Constitutional standards. I just apparently draw my constitutional lines a bit closer to the "anarchal" side than you claim to (though I think you play the adversary's advocate for the fun of it sometimes). Anyway, danger is my middle name, must be my youth.

Ergo, lines are OK as long as you agree with where they should be drawn.

I win....:) :neener:


WildineverplaydevilsadvocateibeleiveineverythingisayyoutrainedkillerandexploiterAlaska
 
OK so now you pick and chose what the communtiy should justly regulate? Simply becasue it imposes personal choice into the public domain....whats the difference then in barring the wearing of a gun in public?

Since wearing a gun isn't part of conducting business in the community but merely an individual's choice of attire it does not constitute the same intrusion. I may be arbitrary but there is an underlying consistency. Which is important to me in everything but my own actions and argument positions. :evil:

And I assume you agree prostituion should be legal as long as its not in public?

Not so much "not in public" but more along the lines that nobody is supposed to conduct business on the sidewalk in, say, Spenard. If it is on your own property, it is also not beyond business reg. limitations to state that some business must be conducted inside, signs must be of a certain size, etc. As long as it is equal treatment, I have no problem with it. Could raise some eyebrows downtown where the food carts are though. And did I ever mention my buddy's idea for a drive-up coffee stand/peep show? Talk about a money maker.

By the way did ya know the US homicide rate was higher in 1919 (the halcyon days of no gun control) than it was in 2000?

Whew, glad I was born into this era with all of its totally different contributory sociological factors that make it completely different from 1919 and thus irrelevent to compare a statistic so broad as "homicide" with. :neener:

care"win"isalittlepresumptivesinceIdon'trecallstakingoutatotally"noregulation"positionbear
 
Why are members with so many good posts trolling? :confused:


Carebear, WA, can you agree to disagree?
 
Somebody got served:) !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will leave it up to ther readers to make up their own mind without posting my opinion..... To the loser though :neener:! The post's speak quite clearly for themselves IMHO ;) .
 
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