More for Buds?

[Balrog]

Here is a good tip... use a pawn broker that has an FFL rather than a gun store.
Pawnbrokers here only charge $25 for a transfer and don't give you any crap about buying over the internet.

Local gun stores are rapidly allowing themselves to go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[dogtown tom]

Kynoch "Drop shipping?" By whom, the actual manufacturers? That I doubt. I would also be interested to learn that Bud's is buying from a distributor. If anything (in a legal sense) they are their own distributors?

Bill Hicks is one distributor that drop ships for orders placed at Bud's.

I do not know of a single manufacturer that drop ships.

 

[Kynoch]

I was in a LGS today with a fairly good consignment rack. The guy behind the counter answered the phone and said they charge $100.00 to receive a firearm and $38.00 for a person-to-person transfer.

Oh yeah, there's no pawn shops around here...

 

[JohnBT]

"Local gun stores are rapidly allowing themselves to go the way of the dinosaur."

So how are the gun stores in this area thriving? Yeah, Gander Mountain was run out of town and Green Top took over the building because they needed more space, but Bass Pro is still just up the street and Hopkins opened a gun/fishing store in Mechanicsville (the family founded Green Top in the '40s), and DeGoff is still in business up the street from Hopkins. Then there are all the little shops. Heck, I almost forgot Colonial Shooting Academy 2 miles from my house. And the range and gun shops on southside.

And now Cabela's is opening a Richmond store in Short Pump.

And there's always Dick's, but those aren't gun stores.

 

[Willie Sutton]

I was in a LGS today with a fairly good consignment rack. The guy behind the counter answered the phone and said they charge $100.00 to receive a firearm and $38.00 for a person-to-person transfer.


In places where state and local laws permit kitchen table FFLs, they are the ones that end up doing transfers. There are three within five miles of me who will do it for $10.00 and are happy to show the activity in their log.

In places where state and local laws make it difficult or impossible for kitchen table FFLs to operate, and especially in California where ALL private transfers need to go thru a dealer to comply with state law, it's a matter of supply and demand, with the economic result that's predictable when there's huge demand and limited supply.



Willie

.

 

[mgmorden]

I'd just move on. Any store that treats transfers with contempt will quickly find themselves out of business. It's a capitalist society. As a consumer, I don't care about the local store's bills, wholesales costs, or the explanations on why they have to price their goods higher than Buds. That's their problem, not mine. I will shop where I can get the best price because $$$ in my pocket is my primary concern.

Just as I shop around for guns I also shop around for transfer FFL's. If they raise their rates too high (or if they try to charge higher from one dealer) then I'm simply not using them. I'll find another transfer FFL.

I've bought 50 guns in my life - not one has come from an actual gun shop, and I doubt that will change unless the local places get price competitive (of course, Palmetto State Armory is opening a store fairly close, so I might actually have some decent local prices soon ).

 

[Kynoch]

I was in a LGS today with a fairly good consignment rack. The guy behind the counter answered the phone and said they charge $100.00 to receive a firearm and $38.00 for a person-to-person transfer.

In places where state and local laws permit kitchen table FFLs, they are the ones that end up doing transfers. There are three within five miles of me who will do it for $10.00 and are happy to show the activity in their log.

We have kitchen table FFLs here in CA. One that I have done business with charges $40/gun which is just fine. I can't see how it would even be worth someone's time (to meet or invite someone over) to do it for $10.00/gun unless it was a favor.

In places where state and local laws make it difficult or impossible for kitchen table FFLs to operate, and especially in California where ALL private transfers need to go thru a dealer to comply with state law, it's a matter of supply and demand, with the economic result that's predictable when there's huge demand and limited supply.

Willie

.

I suspect the real killer here in CA is rent. $1.50-3.00/square foot/month here is a world away from the $.40/square foot/month in other locations. Overhead is thus pretty high. Still, there are 5 places to buy guns in the town of 50K I live in. Another half dozen within 10 miles.

 

[burk]

The fact is IF Buds is not warehousing the item and it is getting dropped shipped from a distributor, Buds has a huge cost advantage. They do not have to receive, inspect, and log in the product. They don't have to pay rent, utilities, and payroll on a warehouse to store the product. There insurance costs and security costs (alarms,etc) are lower because they aren't storing inventory.

I get Buds for used guns although they aren't alone in good pricing, and the reality is used guns are harder to find and if it's what you want searching the net to find it makes sense.

But if I was a dealer I wouldn't charge less than $40 for any transfer, if you figure the real cost of a transfer they are probably just breaking even at that price.

1) They have to pay rent on the space to store the firearm, insurance, and utilities.

2) They have to pay insurance (in some areas this can be quite prohibitive) and deal with local gun shop ordinances many of which are onerous and add higher costs to doing business.

3) They have to check in the firearm properly and transfer it properly, in a state like MI with handgun purchase permits, this is 30-45 minutes of your time, time that could be spent waiting on a profitable customer, or merchandising the store. Not to even mention the cost in fines to the ATF if you screw up. The cost of maintaining a FFL, gun logs, and permit paperwork properly is huge. At a store like Gander Mountain they spend about 30-40 hours a week (the equivalent of one full time employee) checking and filing Firearms paperwork. That's one full time employee who isn't waiting on a customer, stocking shelves, or being a cashier.

4) Plus unlike a drop-shipping call center, they have to maintain a staff of knowledgeable employees on the subject of Firearms and firearms laws, I hope most people here believe they are worth at least $10 an hour.

I have no problem with a LGS charging you a premium for doing business with a competitor and using them as a resource to facilitate that.

 

[happygeek]

I have no problem with a LGS charging you a premium for doing business with a competitor and using them as a resource to facilitate that.

Ironically, I don't necessarily either. In most cases, if they charge too much a competitor will spring up and undercut them, bringing the price back in line with supply & demand. Of course the problem is that the anti-gun types are constantly trying to distort the market, attacking "kitchen table dealers", claiming we have "too many" FFLs, etc. (http://www.vpc.org/studies/dealgas.htm). What's so nonsensical about the whole thing is that they supposedly want licensing of gun owners, then complain that too many people have Federal licenses?

Of course, the biggest distortion of the market is the 1968 GCA itself.

 

[Anmut]

There's no money in new guns. Nothing. I don't blame the LGS by trying to discourage people from buying online. As a previous employee of a LGS that closed I talked with many people that were concerned about that extra $10 they were going to save from Walmart, FleetFarm or any online store such as Bud's gun.

This is how it usually went:
"Hi, what's the price on ________ rifle?"
"Our price is _____________"
"Oh, will you match ________'s price of _______?"
"I'm sorry, we just don't have the buying power to get our _____ at the same cost as them. But I will tell you that we stand behind our products and sales 100%."
"Oh okay. Well thanks, good bye."

(Customer is seen walking into Walmart an hour later to save $13. Then seen walking back into our LGS a day later when there's a jam/issue/etc.)

"Hello, I bought ________ yesterday and it jams on every shot."
"We can look at it. Here on the wall is our super overpriced shop rates for a**holes like you that just had to save $13."

 

[Kynoch]

The fact is IF Buds is not warehousing the item and it is getting dropped shipped from a distributor, Buds has a huge cost advantage. They do not have to receive, inspect, and log in the product. They don't have to pay rent, utilities, and payroll on a warehouse to store the product. There insurance costs and security costs (alarms,etc) are lower because they aren't storing inventory.

I get Buds for used guns although they aren't alone in good pricing, and the reality is used guns are harder to find and if it's what you want searching the net to find it makes sense.

But if I was a dealer I wouldn't charge less than $40 for any transfer, if you figure the real cost of a transfer they are probably just breaking even at that price.

1) They have to pay rent on the space to store the firearm, insurance, and utilities.

2) They have to pay insurance (in some areas this can be quite prohibitive) and deal with local gun shop ordinances many of which are onerous and add higher costs to doing business.

3) They have to check in the firearm properly and transfer it properly, in a state like MI with handgun purchase permits, this is 30-45 minutes of your time, time that could be spent waiting on a profitable customer, or merchandising the store. Not to even mention the cost in fines to the ATF if you screw up. The cost of maintaining a FFL, gun logs, and permit paperwork properly is huge. At a store like Gander Mountain they spend about 30-40 hours a week (the equivalent of one full time employee) checking and filing Firearms paperwork. That's one full time employee who isn't waiting on a customer, stocking shelves, or being a cashier.

4) Plus unlike a drop-shipping call center, they have to maintain a staff of knowledgeable employees on the subject of Firearms and firearms laws, I hope most people here believe they are worth at least $10 an hour.

I have no problem with a LGS charging you a premium for doing business with a competitor and using them as a resource to facilitate that.

Based on the comments about pricing, I can't see how there is a distribution level between the manufacturers and Bud's. I suspect Bud's is a distributor as I'm sure they move more iron that just about any other distributor.

 

[Kynoch]

There's no money in new guns. Nothing. I don't blame the LGS by trying to discourage people from buying online. As a previous employee of a LGS that closed I talked with many people that were concerned about that extra $10 they were going to save from Walmart, FleetFarm or any online store such as Bud's gun...

It's very difficult to turn a buck selling new firearms. I remember going into my LGS (used guns only) and the owner and a client seemed to be discussing a SxS .410 shotgun on the counter.

In reality it was an old Rigby double rifle. They were haggling over the price (they both knew one another well) and when it was agreed upon the buyer (who himself was a dealer) started to pull small ziplock bags full of cash (fifty $100 bills in each) which he sat on the counter. He opened the last bag counted out some bills, stuck them in his pocket, closed the bag and added it to the heap (of about a dozen) already on the counter.

That was some insight into how some real $$$ is made in used firearms...

(BTW, the absolute worst are those that go into brick/mortar shops to look at something, maybe even try it on AND THEN order on-line...)

 

[happygeek]

Based on the comments about pricing, I can't see how there is a distribution level between the manufacturers and Bud's. I suspect Bud's is a distributor as I'm sure they move more iron that just about any other distributor.

Bud's is a LGS in KY: http://thegunwarehouse.com, kinda like J&G Sales (www.jgsales.com) is a LGS in AZ: http://www.jgsales.com/map.php. Classic Firearms, while not a LGS who sells directly to walk in customers, strikes me as a local mom & pop type place. They only recently upgraded their website since they seem to be doing a booming business since Obama got elected, before the website upgrade they really struck me as a mom & pop.

Now if Bud's can buy directly from the importer or the manufacturer, more power to them. Unless I'm mistaken, the C&Rs I've bought from J&G Sales went from the importer -> them -> me.

 

[dogtown tom]

Kynoch .....Based on the comments about pricing, I can't see how there is a distribution level between the manufacturers and Bud's. I suspect Bud's is a distributor as I'm sure they move more iron that just about any other distributor.

Distributors do not sell direct to the public, dealers do.
While Bud's may sell more than some small distributors, they are nowhere close to the sales at RSR, Sport South and the larger distributors.

 

[jeff-10]

I also use a pawn shop though the owner always tells me he is a gun shop masquerading as a pawn shop. He uses Bud's to price his guns. Cheaper than Bass Pro which is right down the street. Also, transfer's are only $10 if you buy $20 worth of merchandise. So basically you just have to buy a box of ammo which he prices competitively.

Now I love guns and never really wanted to own my own business but if I did it would definitely not be a gun shop. Has to be one of the toughest businesses out there.

 

[Elkins45]

Bud's is a LGS in KY: http://thegunwarehouse.com, kinda like J&G Sales (www.jgsales.com) is a LGS in AZ

Sorta. The Bud's retail store in Lexington is essentially run separately from the online business, and I can tell you that much of the online inventory isn't housed in Lexington. When I buy from them online I always specify local pickup and it usually takes 3-4 days before I get the email to come pick it up. Once before I understood this I called the phone number to ask about a used gun in Lexington and I think the lady I spoke to was in New Hampshire or somewhere else in the northeast. There are a lot of used guns in the Lexington store that aren't listed on the website, and I don't think ANY of the online used inventory is in Lexington.

 

[Anmut]

You couldn't be more right. Used is where it's at. That's difficult though, as you have to have the quality used that all the old-timers expect, and the super-cheap used that all the newbies expect.

Seriously, unless you go full out and stick 500k into a store, there's just no way to make a decent living buying and selling guns.

Oh, and let's not even begin talking about trying to wade through all the rules and political b.s. you have to go through. I'm guessing opening a pot store in CO is still easier than getting an FFL.

 

[burk]

Manufactures run all kinds of pricing level deals thru distributors in the firearms business. If Buds commits to a certain level of purchases (and they can be spread it out) they get a better level of pricing. Many manufacturers in the business don't ship any products direct to stores, so distributors become in essence manufacturer warehouses. Even companies like Gander and Bass pro get many of their guns from distributors. It helps the distributors too because they can commit to a higher level of inventory (better program) because of commitments from their large vendors.

The reality is this: If you don't warehouse a product, don't have to expend any manpower receiving, shipping, or complying with FFL paperwork you can make a lot less margin and do it on volume. Because you're not dealing with the other issue of ROI on stocked inventory

 

[Impureclient]

After reading this I am feeling for the LGS due to the comparison to Walmart. We all know that Walmart is not the best thing for our community and small shops. I go out of my way to not shop at Walmart for that reason.
I always have bought my guns at the lowest price available, period. I'm in a pickle right now though. My LGS has an $300 item that is priced at almost $100 more than what I found it for online.
It's mostly $250 online but $200 where I found it cheapest. $100 is a big pill to swallow just to help the local out for one item. Maybe $100 spread throughout a month or two on hundreds of items like shopping at smaller
stores than Walmart but in one pop, it hurts.
One one of my first guns I shopped for online a LGS had the same and price matched the gun. It was my second gun purchase so I was very much uneducated on guns. Now that I know what new and a barely gently used
gun look like I realize that I was probably sold a used gun. That gun looked like somebody cycled it in sand so much that it dug into the outside of the barrel like it was custom engraved with a "deep sand scratch finish".
To this day, I've never even seen a barrel on a highly used gun look like this one did. I've had the gun for years and shot thousands through it and the only wear on it are those same scratches. It's hard to feel sorry for the local
shops when they let something like that happen to an inexperienced buyer. Anybody ever get a obviously used gun from Bud's sold as new, doubt it.

 

[Kynoch]

Distributors do not sell direct to the public, dealers do.
While Bud's may sell more than some small distributors, they are nowhere close to the sales at RSR, Sport South and the larger distributors.

How would you know?

In more and more cases, the distributor tier has been completely eliminated.

 

[Kynoch]

Sorta. The Bud's retail store in Lexington is essentially run separately from the online business, and I can tell you that much of the online inventory isn't housed in Lexington. When I buy from them online I always specify local pickup and it usually takes 3-4 days before I get the email to come pick it up. Once before I understood this I called the phone number to ask about a used gun in Lexington and I think the lady I spoke to was in New Hampshire or somewhere else in the northeast. There are a lot of used guns in the Lexington store that aren't listed on the website, and I don't think ANY of the online used inventory is in Lexington.

Thanks for the insight and for saving me some typing...

 

[Kynoch]

I know as a policy, Wal*Mart refuses to deal with distributors across the board. I wonder if that's true with guns as well? To a large degree, the distributor tier exists as a liability buffer for manufacturers.

 

[mgmorden]

I know as a policy, Wal*Mart refuses to deal with distributors across the board. I wonder if that's true with guns as well? To a large degree, the distributor tier exists as a liability buffer for manufacturers.

It would make sense. Realistically every time product passes through someone's hands that someone wants their cut. Reduce the number of middle men and you reduce the overall cost. I'd wager that within 10 years you'll start to see at least some manufacturer's selling directly to the public.

Why pay Bud's and their distributor when the gun company can up their prices (versus what the distributor pays) and the consumer can pay less (compared to what the dealer charges)?

In the end all parties will end up doing what's best for their bottom line, and middle-men are easy cuts to make.

 

[happygeek]

Sorta. The Bud's retail store in Lexington is essentially run separately from the online business, and I can tell you that much of the online inventory isn't housed in Lexington. When I buy from them online I always specify local pickup and it usually takes 3-4 days before I get the email to come pick it up. Once before I understood this I called the phone number to ask about a used gun in Lexington and I think the lady I spoke to was in New Hampshire or somewhere else in the northeast. There are a lot of used guns in the Lexington store that aren't listed on the website, and I don't think ANY of the online used inventory is in Lexington.

What of it? They can't run a LGS and a website?

I always have bought my guns at the lowest price available, period. I'm in a pickle right now though. My LGS has an $300 item that is priced at almost $100 more than what I found it for online.
It's mostly $250 online but $200 where I found it cheapest. $100 is a big pill to swallow just to help the local out for one item. Maybe $100 spread throughout a month or two on hundreds of items like shopping at smaller
stores than Walmart but in one pop, it hurts.

If you're not buying it from overseas, I'm not sure why you'd care.

I've bought used books from small operations located all over America while in Helmand Province. Of course, I used the Internet to do it, so I must have been contributing to the death of American small business.

Luckily books don't suffer from the same nonsensical laws as firearms.

 

[rule303]

I know as a policy, Wal*Mart refuses to deal with distributors across the board. I wonder if that's true with guns as well? To a large degree, the distributor tier exists as a liability buffer for manufacturers.

In many cases, Walmart is buying from the same distributor as your LGS. In some cases they are buying manufacturer direct. You can usually tell which is which by the price difference. Many manufacturers have agreements with their distributors and dealers not to sell direct to retailers. This helps insure that smaller shops will stock their products.
Lets face it, some consumers will take the purchase to another shop or online to save $5. This isn't the customer base a shop wants to cater to anyway. Take the transfer and move on.