More on the KT Ordinance raid

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neoncowboy

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More on the KT Ordnance raid

6-11-6 posted by richard himself on this forum board;
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=
74f447c6ed76f68c6348cc0ace459c5f;act=ST;f=6;t=14781;st=
100;r=1;&#entry118110


Copy and past the below and send it to all on your e-mail lists:

Due to the recent raid on KT Ordnance, our Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot, 80% Gun Build, and Ice Cream Social, has been changed to: The Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot and Ice Cream Social, NO gun building of any kind will take place.

I was advised by the JBT’s (also known as F Troop) NOT to have the shoot. I say, darn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. We are going to have our shoot, as our God given, Constitutionally protected right, and I will not be bullied. They may put me in jail, but they will never conquer us.

If we as Americans cannot put on a better showing than those illegal aliens did, then we deserve to die. I am asking all Americans to come to Dillon on July 15 to show support for our cause. And what is that cause? It is literally your life! I have, with firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, pledged to each of you my life, my fortune, and my sacred Honor. They have taken my fortune; my freedom or my life may be next.

Will you pledge just one week of fun and shooting to me, and the cause? Look at how successful the biker weeks are. Can we as gun owners not do better? Or are we as gun owners too weak and afraid? You may be next if we do not stop this NOW. No more Ruby Ridges, Wacos, Dillons, and the list goes on, and it will continue to go on, if it is not stopped NOW.

Send the JBT’s back to Washington DC, and tell them there that America’s daughters and her sons are theirs no more. Tell them America is free.

I hope to see before me an army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?

Fight against JBT’s you say? “No, we will run, and we will live”.

Ay, fight and you may die, run and you'll live. At least for a while. And dying in your beds many years from now a slave, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell the JBT’s that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom.

I don't want to be a martyr. I want to live. I want my home, and children, and peace. I've asked God for these things. It's all for nothing if we don't have freedom.

Let this end with me. Let me be the last victim of this rogue agency. Are you mad as hail yet? Go to your windows and open them wide and yell to everyone, “I’m mad as hail, and I’m not going to take this anymore”.

Now go, make your plans to come to Dillon, Montana on July 15th. Do not let this die, or you will die as cowards. We all end up dead; it's just a question of how and why. Every man dies, not every man really lives.

Thanks to Aaron Zelman of the JPFo_Org and GOA.com, Please contribute to the GOA’s legal fund and to JPFO’s Boot the BATF.


Attached link: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=6;
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Are you mad as hail yet?
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I don't know, how mad does hail get?

Is there more substantive info in those links? I see a lot of ranting and very little meaningful content.
 
Everything about this raid is ranting. People gripe about ATF violence. In this case they used a ruse to get the suspect out before they entered. No evil swat team, no forced entry, and no one hurt. This guy is alleged to have been violating federal firearms laws and a warrant was served for that reason. Yet the tin foil hat crowd still is on a rant about the JBT. It never ends.
.Gov always bad, Nutty guy ranting about .Gov always good.
 
Anything he says substancial to the case can and will be used against him.

Or twisted around until it can be.

He's doing the right thing in terms of what he says, for now.
 
Personally, I'm glad they used a ruse to get him out before raiding - he would've had to be killed otherwise, I suppose.

Overall, since they'll do it anyway, I'm glad they did it in this way. Much better than Waco, etc. IMHO.
 
He may owe his life to the local sheriff. It's not far-fetched to guess that when BATFE came to the sheriff to tell him about the raid, he pitched a fit unless this plan was carried out his way, non-violently.
 
I don't know Richard Celata, but I have to wonder if his political views and the nature of his product made him a target or if they were just viewed as making him easier to convict than somebody like Larry Crow.

David
 
He was helping people build unpapered AR pattern guns.

Perfectly legal, but the BATFE doesn't like it and they're well known not to care much about little details like "legality".
 
The usage of the term JBT and the "I wish I was William Wallace in Braveheart" style of speaking really turned me off. If the guy was articulate about anything other than "run, and die," it would have come off as more intelligent, and not so much like Hillbilly Bob.
 
Why Vex? Only the intelligent and articulate are entitled to equal protection under the law?

The guy has been running a business selling pieces of metal to home hobbyist gunsmiths for YEARS. He's run his business within the confines of the law.

Now all of a sudden, the federal gun police (who aren't even *remotely* authorized by the US Constitution) have seized his property, intimidated his family, threatened him, taken away his livelihood and generally ruined his life.

His disdain for the government has nothing to do with it, no matter how vocal.
His wanting payment in gold instead of federal reserve notes has nothing to do with it.

What, it's only wrong if it happens to someone you like and agree with?

This guy is being VICTIMIZED by an federal law enforcement agency OUT OF CONTROL! It's their SOP: make up bogus infractions of obscure laws based on questionable or manufactured evidence and use the resulting legal nightmare to ruin the life of the subject.

It's wrong.

It might as well be you or me, the guy is an American trying to make a living and take care of his family.
 
neoncowboy said:
Why Vex? Only the intelligent and articulate are entitled to equal protection under the law?
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Hold on there, chief. I never said anything about equal protection or the law or anything.... pinpoint my statement if you feel I was referring to anything legal! I said it turned ME off.... I'm allowed to make my own opinion in this country, aren't I? I learned nothing constructive from this guy's rant. It portrays gun owners as radicals, as extremists, and as anarchists fighting against the "Jack Booted Thugs" of the government. It's silly.

Since you didn't read my post thouroughly the first time, allow me to reproduce it in it's entirety:

Vex said:
The usage of the term JBT and the "I wish I was William Wallace in Braveheart" style of speaking really turned me off. If the guy was articulate about anything other than "run, and die," it would have come off as more intelligent, and not so much like Hillbilly Bob.
Click to expand...
 
Vex,

I think your reaction (understandably common) is one that the ATF is counting on. Their message will be:

Richard Celata, anarchist, survivalist, white separatist and puppy hater, aided thousands of neo-nazi, militia and death cult members to produce untraceable super ultra-deadly murder assault weapons of the type used by convicted beltway sniper John Muhammad. He also might not have paid any excise taxes on lumps of metal that were clearly intended to be made into untraceable super ultra-deadly murder assault weapons of the type used by convicted beltway sniper John Muhammad to cowardly murder people.

Regardless of what I think about someone, this is wrong. Richard Celata was a pain for the ATF. Somebody doing something legal that they didn't care for and he walked close to the line. His political views make him an especially easy mark. While I don’t know him, I think he deserves better. The .gov is going to have to work very hard to show me this isn’t vindictive persecution.


David
 
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Well, you have to admit that he's not helping his cause by releasing this obviously extremist letter. It's like the defense attorneys always say, and with very good reason: "My client has no comment."
 
I never said anything about equal protection or the law or anything.... pinpoint my statement if you feel I was referring to anything legal! I said it turned ME off
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OK...so, you're only interested in abuses of the rights of Americans who think like you do, speak like you do and share the same estimation of the government as you do?

You seem to be implying a lack of interest in the case based on a conclusion you've come to about the guy's beliefs or ideology.

It almost sounds like you think it's only worth getting upset about if the government abuses people who love the government.

He called the ATF 'JBT'. Is it your contention that the ATF is not an agency of thugs?

Are you an ATF apologist?
 
Think about how much this letter could be used by the antis to prove all gun owners are eextemist anarchists. It should worry you.

OK...so, you're only interested in abuses of the rights of Americans who think like you do, speak like you do and share the same estimation of the government as you do?
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No, wrong again. My point is that there could be a better way to state his discontent for the actions of the government other than a faux call to arms that reaks with anarchist intent. Replacing "JBT" with "ATF" would be one way. Leaving out the "tell the JBT’s that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom," and similar Braveheart inspired quotes would remove the sense that gun owners are anarchist radicals, as well. Do you want to be painted as a war mongering extremist? I don't, for sure. It only dismisses the logical talking points and allows the anti's ammunition to use against us.

If we articulate our goals and refuse the antis the ammo to call us extremists, we'll be better off when the day comes that the Supreme Court will finally rule the 2nd Amendment as it was originally written.

It almost sounds like you think it's only worth getting upset about if the government abuses people who love the government.
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I haven't yet defended the ATF for taking this guy's business. I'm not familiar enough with the case to take a side. My observation is a neutral one: Clean up our act, or we will destroy the RKBA cause from within.

He called the ATF 'JBT'. Is it your contention that the ATF is not an agency of thugs?
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Once again, I never sided with the ATF. I merely observed that the letter speaks only to those who readily conform to the extreme libertarian. Letters such as these serve no constructive purpose to the RKBA.

I've re-written the letter and made it semi-fit for publishing and distribution among the anti's....

Due to the recent raid on KT Ordnance, our Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot, 80% Gun Build, and Ice Cream Social, has been changed to: The Whiskey Day Memorial Machine Gun Shoot and Ice Cream Social, NO gun building of any kind will take place.

I was advised by the ATF not to have the shoot, however I if I abide by their suggestions, I feel we will have lost one more thing that they wish to take from us: the freedom to exercise our right to keep and bear arms.

If we as Americans cannot put on a better showing than our opponents to the RKBA did, then our voice will not be heard by the liberal media. I am asking all Americans to come to Dillon on July 15 to show support for our cause. And what is that cause? The rights given to us by the 2nd Amendment under the Bill of Rights to keep and bear arms.

Will you pledge just one week of fun and shooting to me, and the cause? Look at how successful the biker weeks are. Can we as gun owners not do better?

Send the ATF back to Washington DC with the message that we know our rights, and we will not be treated as criminals.

I don't want to be oppressed. I want to live. I want my home, and children, and peace.

Please make your plans to come to Dillon, Montana on July 15th. Do not let this event go unnoticed.

Thanks to Aaron Zelman of the JPFo_Org and GOA.com, Please contribute to the GOA’s legal fund and to JPFO’s Boot the BATF.
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Now doesn't that sound alot less like a call to arms or a beginning of the revolution? Doesn't it sound like a piece that could get printed in newspapers across the country as a notice? In the original, there's too much talk about death, dying, killing, etc... and it will only cause to arm the anti's against us by twisting our words and thoughts to paint us as insurgents.
 
Vex...

People always like to bring up the writings of the founding fathers written around the time of the revolution. I have been reading letters and the federalist papers lately, and his writing seems very similar in terms of "Give me freedom or give me death" and what not.

I agree with you he is not getting us anywhere (Count me as a John Adam's type), but he does have quite a bit of cultural precedent ;-)

Makes me think of the bumper sticker I have with pictures of Franklin, Madison, Adams, that says "Right Wing Extremists"
 
This thread again shows why gunowners will eventually lose the fight...

There is no solidarity between pro gun types, too many differing opinions on what and who to defend, Just because someone seems like an extremist, that divides the pro gun community, Some of us refuse to give a damn because their personal politics don't jive with our world view.

The anti's don't have this problem, they're goal is to just outlaw all guns, and anything that forwards that agenda, their side is together...

We need to stop apologizing for a government that IS infringing on our rights, and put the infighting aside and actually come together and support each other. WE ARE IN THIS FIGHT TOGETHER!
 
Shucks, by-golly

Why don't you extremist types just learn to submit, comply and be good citizens? Don't you believe in progress?

The cops are always right!

Sincerely,

Good Citizen

Just wanting to work hard, obey the law, pay my taxes and raise my children...
 
Mel Gibson called, he wants his "Braveheart" speech back. ;)

With that said, I've requested vacation time for this event. Might even have enough freq flyer miles to book a free ticket, this is the best reason I can imagine to take a trip Out West.
 
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