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More on the KT Ordinance raid

Discussion in 'Legal' started by neoncowboy, Jun 11, 2006.

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  1. neoncowboy

    neoncowboy Member

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    More on the KT Ordnance raid

     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2006
  2. Diomed

    Diomed Member

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    I don't know, how mad does hail get?

    Is there more substantive info in those links? I see a lot of ranting and very little meaningful content.
     
  3. Shield529

    Shield529 Member

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    Everything about this raid is ranting. People gripe about ATF violence. In this case they used a ruse to get the suspect out before they entered. No evil swat team, no forced entry, and no one hurt. This guy is alleged to have been violating federal firearms laws and a warrant was served for that reason. Yet the tin foil hat crowd still is on a rant about the JBT. It never ends.
    .Gov always bad, Nutty guy ranting about .Gov always good.
     
  4. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Anything he says substancial to the case can and will be used against him.

    Or twisted around until it can be.

    He's doing the right thing in terms of what he says, for now.
     
  5. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Personally, I'm glad they used a ruse to get him out before raiding - he would've had to be killed otherwise, I suppose.

    Overall, since they'll do it anyway, I'm glad they did it in this way. Much better than Waco, etc. IMHO.
     
  6. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    He may owe his life to the local sheriff. It's not far-fetched to guess that when BATFE came to the sheriff to tell him about the raid, he pitched a fit unless this plan was carried out his way, non-violently.
     
  7. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    I don't know Richard Celata, but I have to wonder if his political views and the nature of his product made him a target or if they were just viewed as making him easier to convict than somebody like Larry Crow.

    David
     
  8. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    He was helping people build unpapered AR pattern guns.

    Perfectly legal, but the BATFE doesn't like it and they're well known not to care much about little details like "legality".
     
  9. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    Guess when you can make up the law as you go along, legality doesn't mean much.

    David
     
  10. Vex

    Vex Member

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    The usage of the term JBT and the "I wish I was William Wallace in Braveheart" style of speaking really turned me off. If the guy was articulate about anything other than "run, and die," it would have come off as more intelligent, and not so much like Hillbilly Bob.
     
  11. neoncowboy

    neoncowboy Member

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    Why Vex? Only the intelligent and articulate are entitled to equal protection under the law?

    The guy has been running a business selling pieces of metal to home hobbyist gunsmiths for YEARS. He's run his business within the confines of the law.

    Now all of a sudden, the federal gun police (who aren't even *remotely* authorized by the US Constitution) have seized his property, intimidated his family, threatened him, taken away his livelihood and generally ruined his life.

    His disdain for the government has nothing to do with it, no matter how vocal.
    His wanting payment in gold instead of federal reserve notes has nothing to do with it.

    What, it's only wrong if it happens to someone you like and agree with?

    This guy is being VICTIMIZED by an federal law enforcement agency OUT OF CONTROL! It's their SOP: make up bogus infractions of obscure laws based on questionable or manufactured evidence and use the resulting legal nightmare to ruin the life of the subject.

    It's wrong.

    It might as well be you or me, the guy is an American trying to make a living and take care of his family.
     
  12. nvshooter

    nvshooter member

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    Who, or what, is KT Ordinance? Isn't that "ordnance?"
     
  13. Vex

    Vex Member

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    Hold on there, chief. I never said anything about equal protection or the law or anything.... pinpoint my statement if you feel I was referring to anything legal! I said it turned ME off.... I'm allowed to make my own opinion in this country, aren't I? I learned nothing constructive from this guy's rant. It portrays gun owners as radicals, as extremists, and as anarchists fighting against the "Jack Booted Thugs" of the government. It's silly.

    Since you didn't read my post thouroughly the first time, allow me to reproduce it in it's entirety:

     
  14. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    Vex,

    I think your reaction (understandably common) is one that the ATF is counting on. Their message will be:

    Richard Celata, anarchist, survivalist, white separatist and puppy hater, aided thousands of neo-nazi, militia and death cult members to produce untraceable super ultra-deadly murder assault weapons of the type used by convicted beltway sniper John Muhammad. He also might not have paid any excise taxes on lumps of metal that were clearly intended to be made into untraceable super ultra-deadly murder assault weapons of the type used by convicted beltway sniper John Muhammad to cowardly murder people.

    Regardless of what I think about someone, this is wrong. Richard Celata was a pain for the ATF. Somebody doing something legal that they didn't care for and he walked close to the line. His political views make him an especially easy mark. While I don’t know him, I think he deserves better. The .gov is going to have to work very hard to show me this isn’t vindictive persecution.


    David
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2006
  15. Vex

    Vex Member

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    Well, you have to admit that he's not helping his cause by releasing this obviously extremist letter. It's like the defense attorneys always say, and with very good reason: "My client has no comment."
     
  16. Otherguy Overby

    Otherguy Overby member

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    Puppies?

    The BATFE actually managed to pull this off without stomping any puppies?

    Or, are they just covering things up better now?
     
  17. neoncowboy

    neoncowboy Member

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    OK...so, you're only interested in abuses of the rights of Americans who think like you do, speak like you do and share the same estimation of the government as you do?

    You seem to be implying a lack of interest in the case based on a conclusion you've come to about the guy's beliefs or ideology.

    It almost sounds like you think it's only worth getting upset about if the government abuses people who love the government.

    He called the ATF 'JBT'. Is it your contention that the ATF is not an agency of thugs?

    Are you an ATF apologist?
     
  18. Vex

    Vex Member

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    Think about how much this letter could be used by the antis to prove all gun owners are eextemist anarchists. It should worry you.

    No, wrong again. My point is that there could be a better way to state his discontent for the actions of the government other than a faux call to arms that reaks with anarchist intent. Replacing "JBT" with "ATF" would be one way. Leaving out the "tell the JBT’s that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom," and similar Braveheart inspired quotes would remove the sense that gun owners are anarchist radicals, as well. Do you want to be painted as a war mongering extremist? I don't, for sure. It only dismisses the logical talking points and allows the anti's ammunition to use against us.

    If we articulate our goals and refuse the antis the ammo to call us extremists, we'll be better off when the day comes that the Supreme Court will finally rule the 2nd Amendment as it was originally written.

    I haven't yet defended the ATF for taking this guy's business. I'm not familiar enough with the case to take a side. My observation is a neutral one: Clean up our act, or we will destroy the RKBA cause from within.

    Once again, I never sided with the ATF. I merely observed that the letter speaks only to those who readily conform to the extreme libertarian. Letters such as these serve no constructive purpose to the RKBA.

    I've re-written the letter and made it semi-fit for publishing and distribution among the anti's....

    Now doesn't that sound alot less like a call to arms or a beginning of the revolution? Doesn't it sound like a piece that could get printed in newspapers across the country as a notice? In the original, there's too much talk about death, dying, killing, etc... and it will only cause to arm the anti's against us by twisting our words and thoughts to paint us as insurgents.
     
  19. kel

    kel Member

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    Vex...

    People always like to bring up the writings of the founding fathers written around the time of the revolution. I have been reading letters and the federalist papers lately, and his writing seems very similar in terms of "Give me freedom or give me death" and what not.

    I agree with you he is not getting us anywhere (Count me as a John Adam's type), but he does have quite a bit of cultural precedent ;-)

    Makes me think of the bumper sticker I have with pictures of Franklin, Madison, Adams, that says "Right Wing Extremists"
     
  20. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    But what if one really is an "anarchist radical" ? ;)

    (at least by some people's definition :rolleyes: )
     
  21. The Drew

    The Drew Member

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    This thread again shows why gunowners will eventually lose the fight...

    There is no solidarity between pro gun types, too many differing opinions on what and who to defend, Just because someone seems like an extremist, that divides the pro gun community, Some of us refuse to give a damn because their personal politics don't jive with our world view.

    The anti's don't have this problem, they're goal is to just outlaw all guns, and anything that forwards that agenda, their side is together...

    We need to stop apologizing for a government that IS infringing on our rights, and put the infighting aside and actually come together and support each other. WE ARE IN THIS FIGHT TOGETHER!
     
  22. ProficientRifleman

    ProficientRifleman Member

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    Shucks, by-golly

    Why don't you extremist types just learn to submit, comply and be good citizens? Don't you believe in progress?

    The cops are always right!

    Sincerely,

    Good Citizen

    Just wanting to work hard, obey the law, pay my taxes and raise my children...
     
  23. The Cavalry

    The Cavalry Member

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    Mel Gibson called, he wants his "Braveheart" speech back. ;)

    With that said, I've requested vacation time for this event. Might even have enough freq flyer miles to book a free ticket, this is the best reason I can imagine to take a trip Out West.
     
  24. GunnySkox

    GunnySkox Member

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    When will the Combine see fit to deactivate the Suppression Field?

    Sincerely,
    ~A Concerned Citizen

    :D

    ~GnSx
    www.hlcomic.com
    Just trying to lighten the mood
     
  25. Derby FALs

    Derby FALs Member In Memoriam

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    Logic is never going to win over emotion...
     
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