More powder less pressure signs???

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I am new here and being that you guys seem nice and knowledgeable, here goes. I am shooting a .308 using RL15, neck sized Winchester brass pushing 178g Amax. While doing a ladder test I experienced flattened primers and a hint of extractor smile @ 43.5g, but with 44.0 and 44.3 the signs weren't there. Primers still rounded edges and no extractor smile. Can anyone explain why?? I have reloaded since I was old enough to drive and am 39 now and have never ran into this situation, but now that I am stretching rounds out to 1000 and going for the most accuracy I can get out of the rifle I run into this. Any help is appreciated, and thanks in advance.
 
My first WAG was you started very low and were experiencing a slight delay in bullet travel when it first hits the rifling.
Resulting in a pressure increase before it can get out of the way!
The higher loads keep them moving resulting in less pressure.

But then, I looked at my Hornady manual.

It seems you started out at 43.5.
And Hornady #6 manual says the Max load with that bullet & RL-15 is 41.0!!!!!!

So, I got nothing!

rc
 
When you get hard bolt lift on a bolt action, you have found your maximum. Then reduce load to where accuracy was best. Alliant shows 45gr maximum with a 180gr bullet. Different component = Different pressure.
 
I kinda sorta disagree with hard bolt lift.

On a really high quality action with hand lapped lugs, perfect smooth polished chamber, etc?

You will have easy bolt lift right up to the point primers start falling out of the cases, and then some.

It is a pretty reliable indicator on a typical off the shelf hunting rifle.

But maybe not so good on a high-grade, or custom blue-printed rifle.

rc
 
Just out of simplicity, is there any way one component was switched from lot or brand? Also order of shots and temp of rounds and or gun when high pressure sign round was shot? Have you tried to duplicate this with the same charge? This may get interesting.:what:
 
Maybe this is why?

To note something interesting on Quickload. At 43.5gr. case fill is 98.9% depending on COAL. i used 2.800". And at 44gr. case fill is 100.5% so now the powder is compressed, hints changing powder burn dynamics??? RC wanna chime in on that thought?
 
I've had the same thing happen, and I think I might know what's going on. I seat up too, and often times jammed slightly into the lands. So if the powder charge isn't high enough, there is a momentary pressure spike as the bullet is entering the lands, or engraving. But a bullet still encounters resistance during the engraving process as it enters the lands, running start or not. This in turn can cause momentary pressure spikes. This is one of the reasons why seating up too, or jamming into the lands can cause high pressure spike I believe. Not all powders, bullets, barrels will show a noticeable spike, but it does happen with certain component combinations.

I've experienced it with most of the cartridges I develop, 22-250, .243 win, 6mm, .270 win., 7 mag, 300 WM have all experienced this phenomenon at one time or another. But most often I experience it when using real slow burners for a specific cartridge application when using bonded core bullets, or solid copper projectiles.

Most recently I experienced it with .270 win. IMR-7828 and 130 gr. Speer #1459 Hot Cores, but it didn't happen with the Speer# 1458 / 130 gr. BT's. Bolt lift was stiff, primers were flattened, and there was an extractor button imprint on the case head right around about mid table, Speer data. As I continued to work up, pressures signs began to noticeably come down, and completely disappeared at about 85% table. I surmise that because the Hot Core may have a sharper olgive profile, thicker jacket, and, or a harder core, it produces more friction as it enters the lands.

GS
 
What are the velocities you were getting? The win cases may be good for another grain of powder over a heavier case, and that can depend on what primer you are using. What manual or experience are you using to develop your loads? Are you gong for max velocity, or max accuracy?

Have seen velocities drop off when increasing powder charges near/over max listed charges, but can not explain it.

Bolt lift and reading cases are not reliable signs you have reached max pressures, but they do indicate you are over max combinations for that rifle. Likely pretty well over the line, unless you have other circumstances causing them.
 
First, are you sure you "marked" or arranged the varying charges correctly.
A mix-up in charges would be my first guess.

That's if I actually thought reading primers was a viable technique for determining /reading pressure. Extractor makes sure, primers-not so much.
 
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I would have to agree with steve. It happens. I mark otherwise identical ammo so I don't do that. (Any more)
 
To note something interesting on Quickload. At 43.5gr. case fill is 98.9% depending on COAL. i used 2.800". And at 44gr. case fill is 100.5% so now the powder is compressed, hints changing powder burn dynamics??? RC wanna chime in on that thought?
In the Lee Modern Reloading, Second Edition manual, page 86-88, Richard Lee goes into about an experiment he did with compressed loads. In summry, he printed that he'd gone over the max charge and was getting head expansion. Once he charged with compressed loads the head expansions dropped.

I'll admit my ignorance on rifle loads. Just thought I would throw that info out there. :)
 
Pressure Curve FL vs Neck sized.

Note: When working up loads, always FL size the brass so the pressure curve is the same each firing. The little 5.56 has a 4% case volume increase if only neck sized, when the body is in contact with* the chamber walls. More with a 308, i would guess.
 
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243winxb said:
Note: When working up loads, always FL size the brass so the pressure curve is the same each firing. The little 5.56 has a 4% case volume increase if only neck sized, when the body is in contact with* the chamber walls. More with a 308, i would guess.

I'm going to disagree with this.

Neck sized, Partial FL sized or full FL sized will have no affect on "pressure".

As soon as the primer ignites the powder the case (all cases) are expanded to fit/seal the chamber. This happens long before the bullet exits the neck and Long before "peak" pressure.

Peak pressure is determined by the Expanded case, not the amount of sizing before hand.
 
Yes I am 100% sure the loads are correct, I use a sharpie and mark charge on each case before charging them. I thought the same thing, but replicated the results with more loads the next day.
 
Have not shot over a chorno so cant answer that question. I am using CCI200 primers and jumping the bullet .020. When working up my loads I use five different manuals as reference, Lyman 49th, Nosler, Lee 2nd, a Speer from the 70s and a Sierra from the 70s. The last two I don't use as much as the others because they don't list any loads for the bullets with RL15. The rifle is a Howa 1500, 20" tube. This has me scratching my head because I do want accuracy as well as velocity to keep the round supersonic out to 1000yds.
 
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I did the same test with same charges the next day and got the same results. The temp outside was 48 degrees and they were all shot in a round robin order giving the rifle appox 2min between shots.
 
I have always thought a compressed load when shook, you could not hear powder in it. I can shake these loads and hear the powder in them. I try to stay away from compressed loads, but that is just me. When I first got the rifle I tried using IMR 4064 pushing 150 noslers and didn't like the compressed loads, and the rifle didn't care for them either.
 
Lyman 49th states 44.3 is max while lee 2nd states Never exceed 45.0g. Nosler calls 44.0 max, but I have always been the guy that uses their info as a reference.
 
Primers provide unreliable indications of pressure.

I found, after shooting dry cases in a dry chamber, in my M1a, dry loads that had flattened primers after firing, the exact same rounds but fired with case lube on the case had nicely rounded primers. Obviously case lube on the outside of the case had no influence to pressures inside and could not make pressures drop (!) so something else was going on.

To start with, if the case and chamber is dry, the case will adhere to the chamber wall. If pressures are low enough, the case sidewalls won't stretch and after firing, the primer will be found above the case head.

These are my cases, a load of 150 SMK 47.5 grains IMR 4895 fired in a SAKO rifle. I full length size my cases and try to push the shoulder back about 0.003". This load developed low enough pressures in this rifle that the sidewalls did not stretch but of course, the primers backed out.
150Sierra47.jpg

I am of the opinion that as pressures build, and build enough to stretch the sidewalls or overcome sidewall friction, the case will slide back to the bolt face and that will stuff the primer back into the pocket. I think it is a fair guess that the longer the primer is out of the pocket the more it expands and thusly, looks flat when it is finally reseated. For my lubricated cases, case to chamber friction was quite low so the cases slide back to the bolt face when internal pressures were still quite low, thus, nicely rounded primers.


These primers are not particularly flat, but the primer has pierced and the anvil is sticking out! Obviously the pressures are excessive.

CroppedRearcaseontopfiringpinlarger.jpg

CroppedGoodrearcaseshotDSCN6127.jpg

When I develop loads, now I lube my cases and examine primers for evidence of flattening. It is not 100% as occasionally I get blown or pierced primers when other primers, of the same load, are slightly rounded. I am beginning to believe that pressures vary a lot more than we have been lead to believe, and that could be the problem: given the variance of pressures, some loads of the same charge will appear OK, but others will be 20% higher, even though everything is the same, and those high pressure rounds blow primers. However, whenever I see the transition of rounded to flattened primers with lubricated cases, I am at, above, or near a maximum load. One other advantage of lubricated cases is that the full thrust of the case is applied to the bolt face and overpressure loads will reveal themselves by sticking bolt lift. Case friction between the case and chamber will reduce the load on the bolt face, giving false positive indications of normal pressures, as the bolt lift will appear to be normal with an overpressure load. Out of decades of shooting, the only time I had obviously overpressure loads that did not give sticky extraction with an overpressure load was last year. I had loads in a FN 270 Win that were clocking 3200 fps with 130 grain bullets. I had lubricated the cases and primers looked OK, and no excessive bolt lift. But, 3200 fps with a 130 is way too hot, and later, when repriming that brass, I found a few cases with loose pockets. I did install an extra power mainspring so it is possible that was disguising bolt lift effort.

The only 100% indications of high pressures are blown primers, pierced primers, sticking cases and expanded case heads. If you ever experience one of these signs your loads are way over pressure, and they were overpressure at least a grain of powder ago.

One thing you can always count on, add more powder to a constant volume pressure vessel, pressures will increase. I cannot fully explain what is going on in your rifle, maybe your false positive indications of low pressures are due to chamber polish, pressure curve, but rest assured, the pressures are not going down.
 
Thank you for the reply. I understand that the pressures are not going down with the increase in charge. Im just stumped that the signs are getting less noticeable. I have never lubed my cases before firing, but it does make sense so I will give it a try. Maybe I can see some change in bolt lift to indicate a max charge in my particular rifle.
 
It might be the primer is a tick soft. Seriously doubt there is any issue at all. Primers are flat if the edges are round.
"...Hornady #6 manual says..." Manuals reflecting conditions on the day of the test with the test firearm only, Notaglockfanboy is fine. Alliant gives 45 of RL15at 2613 fps with a CCI 200 for a 180. Close enough to a 178. Two grains doesn't matter.
Lee tests nothing themselves. Their data comes from the powder maker.
If the bolt is hard to lift, you're way past maximum.
 
well i do not know your actual capacity for your cases and if you are neck sizing only then im sure it is a tad bigger but if you can hear the powder rattle then it is not compressed. i would venture to say it is the bullet momentarily stopping when it contacts the rifling, or you got the ammo mixed up. Either way why not try some Sierra 155 gr Palma match bullets, they are designed to stay super sonic too 1000 yds.
 
I have a rifle that flattens primer on low charges (top hat style).
Stops flattening at mid charges.
Goes back to flat primers at high charges.

I have no idea why this happens and I stopped trying to use the primers to judge pressure on this firearm. I personally find primers to be un-reliable for pressure on other rifles as well.
 
sounds like your rl15 burns great at 43.5 grains, and not so great at 44.0 and 44.3 grains. if this scenario is anything like h110 in the 357 magnum, then 45.0 grains will probably burn as well as 43.5 grains. if that happens, you will have more than an extractor mark on your case.

for shooting the 308 win at 1000 yards, i suggest you check out the riflemans journal

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-308-palma-preparation-and.html

murf
 
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