Mosin-Nagant as a defense rifle

[TimboKhan]

I was reading another post, and a guy said this:

Well Nolo I have three Nagants and wouldn't carry any of them in to battle to defend my country my house etc

I got to thinking about this, and I agree with him to the extent that I have better rifles to do those things, and thus choose them.

Or would I?

The Mosin has several things going for it as a defense rifle.
1. It has been used to defend countries for a long, long time. Proven
2. Rugged to an extreme.
3. Easy and cheap to purchase relatively large amounts of ammo
4. Ammo can be purchased in large lots already packaged for cacheing (sp?) away.
5. Perhaps most important, ammo is cheap enough to buy in quantities that allow for regular and frequent practice. If you don't have suitable facilities or time to reload, try seeing how much .223 ammo, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54 ammo you can buy for $50.00 right now.
6. Distinct lack of moving parts. Kinda the same thing as "rugged", but kinda not. An AK is rugged, but it has more moving parts.

I know that this topic has been brought up before, but it's a fun thing to talk about (at least for me), and so I bring it up again. I would agree that the Mosin probably isn't the best home defense rifle. Loud, overkill for caliber, unwieldy. But, if it was all I had handy or all I could afford, it would by-god get the job done! Without even going to the extreme of a TEOTWAWKI, Zombie or Meteor invasion situation, I can think of plenty of realistic situations where it would be a good choice. Not the BEST choice mind you, but a good, functional choice. Katrina immediately springs to mind. A rugged rifle in those conditions would be an absolute boon. I happen to really like the AR platform, and I am a well-known fan of the SKS, and the AK is a darn good rifle, but I think the Mosin would outshine all of them in a environmental situation like Katrina.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. I fully realize that there are better choices, and as I mentioned, I have taken advantage of those choices myself. But, I also know that if the situation turns ugly, that $100.00 rifle in my closet will be more than up to the task of keeping me alive.

 

[Hoppy590]

there are better choices.

and while i would never feel underguned with my mosin. and its definatly number 1 if i should hear "fix bayonets"

common russian mosin is

too powerfull for HD work
too slow for close in work

too inaccurate for long range work

how ever a mosin is basicaly, at the least, a pointy stick. and a pointy stick is better than nothing.

 

[mp510]

I would much rather have a modern battle rifle for fighting against modern military or para-military type enemies- unless I intended on sticking the enemy- the Russian Mosins are very well suited for that task The Finnish rifles are much more accurate, however, the 5 round capacity and bolt action mechanism are serious detractors- I could accurately let off a whole lot more ammo, accurately from a semi than any bolt in the same time frame.

In the house, any Mosin is better than NO gun. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it is better than a lot of guns- I would much rather use a Mosin than a
.22 for example. However, Mosins and any other weapon with an almost 30 inch barrel is a bitch to clear corners with- it makes a 20" AR seem like paradise. I would worry somewhat about overpenetration, however, I've read accounts of 115 9x19 hardball fired from a pistol makeing it's way through most of a house- the way many houses are built, clearing walls is very likely with almost anything.

 

[Acheron]

I agree with using the MN as a defense gun. I have two and I love them. I think that the OP hits a lot of good points. A MN can go a long time without cleaning, even if it is shooting corrosive ammo. A MN has fewer moving parts than an AR, AK, SKS, M1/M14, FAL, etc. Fewer moving parts equals fewer things that can break/wear out. Sure, an MBR is great but it doesn't do jack s**t if it's broken.

I don't think I would use a MN for HD (unless it's all I have), I would use a shotgun for that. But I do think that a MN would make a supreme SHTF rifle. My only question would be what model to use? A 91/30, M38/M44, or a Finn?

 

[cwmcgu2]

My Scout-setup M44 would be my primary defense rifle for anything but a Hollywoodesque shtf situation. Because of the cheap ammo prices with 7.62x54R I am a much better shot with it than my AR as of now. My AR would only become a better choice, at the present moment, for an unlikely situation where I was actively engaging multiple hostile targets.

 

[DMK]

There are better and more modern weapons for sure.

However, the 7.62x54R can certainly have impressive terminal effects.

the initial line of impact of the bullet was almost centered on the block... at the time of significant yawing (energy/momentum transfer), the bullet had traveled off to one side of the center of the block, thus creating a torque on the block and spinning it like a rag doll.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292190

 

[Novus Collectus]

too powerfull for HD work
too slow for close in work

too inaccurate for long range work

Lower powered ammo can be loaded and someone could experiment a little and maybe use bullets likely to penetrate walls as much like using balls instead of bullets.
Hollow training ammo might be another lower powered, less penetrating option. I bet even the hollow target ammo that was commonly available a few years ago would be more powerful than most of the powerful handguns.

My M44 is more accurate than I am at 100 yards using iron sights. Some can be more than accurate enough.

However, Mosins and any other weapon with an almost 30 inch barrel is a bitch to clear corners with- it makes a 20" AR seem like paradise.

I think the M38s and the M44s carbines have a 20" barrel.

 

[TimboKhan]

too powerfull for HD work
too slow for close in work

too inaccurate for long range work

how ever a mosin is basicaly, at the least, a pointy stick. and a pointy stick is better than nothing.

Here is where we disagree.

1. I agree that the Mosin is too powerful for HD work. That being said, if I am defending my home, is there really such a thing as too powerful? I know that the argument is going to be made about penetration, and while I agree that many walls are going to be penetrated, I have my own views on wall penetration. Needless to say, I think that the arguement is bunk because darn near any caliber commonly used for home defense is going to penetrate. Anyway, that opinion aside, I agree with your main point given that there are better choices.

2. Hmm. This is a tough one. Given the options available, the Mosin certainly is slower. However, I am not an operator, and I don't think I will ever have to do much close-in work, and certainly not against multiple targets. I mean, I happen to have a AR right next to my bed ready to rock, but I am not sure that I really need it. Depending on the situation I agree, I guess.

3. This is where you and I part ways completely. The Mosin is plenty capable of doing long range work, depending on what you mean by long range. I can hit reliably, with open sights, on man-sized targets out to 300 yards. It is not a "tactical" rifle, and except for fun, I will not be shooting at 1000 yards. Ever. Is it pin-point accurate? Nope. Is the accuracy good enough to get the job done? Yep. I would point out that Russian snipers would wholly disagree with you that they are nothing more than a pointy stick.


Fellows, keep in mind that I am fully aware that there are better options, and that I use them myself. I guess my whole point is that better options don't mean that this one is bad. The arguments for capacity, speed, automatic firing and all that are well and good, but many tens of thousands of people and game have fallen to this rifle. I actually do think that the argument could be made that the Mosin is comparably suited to darn near any situation that we will likely face when compared to a modern tactical rifle. Since most of us aren't snipers and won't be greenlighting shots at 700 yards, consider that the Mosin holds at least as many rounds as a tactical rifle, does not have a scope to get in the way, and is designed specifically for combat.

 

[Hoppy590]

iv always been a promotor of Mosins, anyone can search my name and the word mosin and see that

thats said. none of my MN's ( russian and chinese) are tack drivers.

is there really such a thing as too powerful

ignoring the obvious over penetration. have you ever fired a rifle in a confined space? now add the dark of night and a mosins muzzle flash. loud noises, bright lights.... familiar with how a flashbang works? im willing to bet getting up at 2, 3 am and setting off a mosin in the confines of your kitchen would be equivalant of a flashbang.

Hmm. This is a tough one. Given the options available, the Mosin certainly is slower. However, I am not an operator, and I don't think I will ever have to do much close-in work, and certainly not against multiple targets

im not an operator, and judging from your sig ( Marines 90-93) your far more qualified than me. but "engaging multiple targets" doesnt always mean breaching a door and rescueing a hostage. a quick follow up shot becomes REAL important when you find two men in your living room, the guy 20 feet from you has a knife, and the one a few feet past him has a gun... with a mosin, or almost any bolt gun. ( SMLE and k31 with practice asside) who do you shoot?

Yep. I would point out that Russian snipers would wholly disagree with you that they are nothing more than a pointy stick.

and ww1 marines would tell you the fight starts at 800 yards... i how ever am not a russian sniper or a us marine.
no real way you can justify HD at 200 yards. even in a SHTF/EOTWAWKI i dont picture myself taking shots at things farther than 150 and in that case 7.62X39 is plenty.

Lower powered ammo can be loaded and someone could experiment a little and maybe use bullets likely to penetrate walls as much like using balls instead of bullets.

but the OP was very specific about the availability of cheap ammo and not loading your own

3. Easy and cheap to purchase relatively large amounts of ammo
4. Ammo can be purchased in large lots already packaged for cacheing (sp?) away.
5. Perhaps most important, ammo is cheap enough to buy in quantities that allow for regular and frequent practice. If you don't have suitable facilities or time to reload, try seeing how much .223 ammo, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54 ammo you can buy for $50.00 right now.

i hope soem of that made sense. im tired. again. i love the Mosin. but for the roughly 100$ you could get a Hi Point carbine, or a pump gun that would serve asa far better HD gun. or an SKS wich would be a better SHTF gun

still. pointy stick better than nothing

 

[Regolith]

a quick follow up shot becomes REAL important when you find two men in your living room, the guy 20 feet from you has a knife, and the one a few feet past him has a gun... with a mosin, or almost any bolt gun. ( SMLE and k31 with practice asside) who do you shoot?

Well, since most Mosins have a bayonet...Shoot the guy with a gun and bayonet the guy with the knife....after all, a Mosin with a bayonet is essentially a freaking spear, and spears have been used to take out guys with knives for thousands of years.

But yeah, the Mosin isn't my preferred HD weapon either.

 

[Newton]

Only if it's all that you can afford.

A pump action shotgun is marginally more expensive and infinitely better suited to the task.

It also won't kill one of your neighbors in addition to the goblin you catch sneaking into your bedroom.

 

[JWarren]

Katrina immediately springs to mind.

Went through it, and I'd much rather have had something other than a Mosin.


In Katrina, you were far more likely to need a good handgun than a long gun-- and then you are talking about a long gun that is-- well -- LOOOONG.


Your mileage would go further with a shorter carbine -- you would be tossing it in your vehicle quite a bit.

Semi-auto is much preferred to a bolt gun. There's a reason that we went from the 1903 Springfield to the Garand, after all.


In the aftermath of something like Katrina, you won't be sitting around waiting for something to happen. You will have a lot of work to do. That means moving around a lot. I learned that even with something short and fairly light (AK), I still just didn't have the ability to lug that around while I was removing debris and trees. It stayed in the Jeep.

I can't even imagine attempting to lug a mosin around in the same circumstances.

And then there are the times you have to leave home. You will want something you can put in the cab of a vehicle. That same firearm is one that you need to be able to get out and wield in a reasonable amount of time and with little effort. A short or folding carbine is much easier.



As said before, Anything is better than nothing.



I think that a lot of people have a misconception of what the aftermath of a natural disaster will be. That's natural and understandable if you haven't been there-- but listen to those that have if you want to get a more realistic understanding of what you may expect so that you can (hopefully) be in even a better situation than they were if you ever face such a thing.



-- John

 

[FieroCDSP]

I'm the proud owner of a Mosin M44 and a recently purchased 91/30. With the cops five blocks down the street, were I to ever have to fire that thing in the dark of night, the cops would be here before the guy would get back up if I missed. I agree that it would likely be akin to a flashbang or concussion grenade, and one or both parties would probably disoriented. That would be the best time to stick the guy.

It's better than nothing, but there's a whole lot between the best for HD and nothing.

 

[PzGren]

One of the things that make me wonder, is how rarely I see people at the gun ranges that I frequent firing rifles from combat positions. To shoot a bolt action standing takes a little more practice than shooting an M4, it also requires more strength.
The only Mosin we have in the house is a Suomi M39 and it is heavier than a K98k.
I feel fine with the Mauser K98k, can shoot it well, and during the hurricanes, I had it and about 100 rounds on stripper clips ready despite having an HBAR AR, an M4, an AK, Mini 14, and having had an SKS at the time.

I would not rule a Mosin M38 out, either. But any of my remaining rifles, or shotguns, could do the job, as long as I can remember my training in the 173. PzGrenBtl

 

[baz]

I would like to have a couple on hand for shtf to put in the hands of people who might not have had the foresight to be armed themselves, but who I would trust to help out in such a situation. With a couple of MN's I could arm four people.

 

[wcwhitey]

I had to think about this one for a little while. My answer is no to all of the above. I picked up my first M44 a few weeks ago. Although I am impressed with the condition of the gun and the ability to buy cheap ammo my impression is based on the fact that it is a $100 gun. Mine shot 3 1/2" inch groups at 100 yards, not bad for a Mosin, but if it were a Mauser or 1903a3 I would be disappointed.
I have an AR, M1A and several other Milsurp bolt guns, I would go to any them before the Mosin. One thing I think that they fill the bill for perfectly is cache. For that price they make a great cabin gun, truck gun or back-up rifle. In the closet in case of emergency with a spam can of ammo.
They are fun to shoot because to the recoil and blast. All the reasons why I would not want to shoot one inside my home. Bill

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The first rule of gunfighting is have a gun. That said there are better choices out there if for some reason you are restricted to a bolt action rifle.

The primary attributes which make the Mosin-Nagant desireable are (a) low price for most variants, (b) relatively cheap ammo, and (c) peasant-proof ruggedness and reliability.

For defensive use they have some significant limitations: (a) the bolt is stiff and not smooth to operate, (b) the magazine is hard to load or top off rapidly, even with good stripper clips, (c) safety manipulation is awkward at best.

If one must use a bolt action rifle for defense the best choices are Lee-Enfield, either a No.4, No.5, or SMLE. The action is smooth, it holds 10 rounds, the sights on the No.4 and 5 are much better, and the safety is easy to manipulate. A Mauser (this includes the US M1903 and M1917) would be next best after an Lee-Enfield.

FWIW, I have four Mosin-Nagants, so I have first-hand experience with the design: Finn m/1891 and m/1939, and Soviet M1891/30 and M1938.

 

[Novus Collectus]

a quick follow up shot becomes REAL important when you find two men in your living room, the guy 20 feet from you has a knife, and the one a few feet past him has a gun... with a mosin, or almost any bolt gun.

That's what the bayonet is for.

but the OP was very specific about the availability of cheap ammo and not loading your own

I understand about cheap ammo, but that would be for plinking I assume because not many people are going to be firing so many shots in a HD situation where they would have to start worrying about their ammo supply and ammo budget dwindling.
I offered the option of reloading as an alternate possibility, the OP can take it or leave it.

i hope soem of that made sense. im tired. again. i love the Mosin. but for the roughly 100$ you could get a Hi Point carbine, or a pump gun that would serve asa far better HD gun. or an SKS wich would be a better SHTF gun

In some states, cities or districts it is not easy to get a handgun (or cheap handguns) due to laws or available FFLs, but real easy to get a rifle.

 

[MassMark]

M44's are excellent Cache Weapons....As to using them for HD, I think it would be slightly insane, unless you slip your Peltors and RayBans on with them. If not, your first shot better be on the nickel, as I'm at least a little sure a follow up in a dark room would be a little iffy....

 

[Avenger]

Would I use a 91/30 for home defense? It wouldn't be my first choice. If I had to use any Mosin, it'd be an M38. Shorter barrel, less weight. The Soviets only put a bayo on the M44 because they realized that you don't always happen to have a PPsh 41 or 43 with you.

If I fired my Mosin inside a hallway at night with no hearing protection.....well, I think I'd rather have to face the flash-bang! Besides, repainting the scorched walls would be a pain.

 

[hank327]

It would be better than nothing. If I had to use a bolt action for social purposes,
my first choice hands down would be a Lee-Enfield. But if a M-N was all I had, I would make do.

 

[Hoppy590]

In some states, cities or districts it is not easy to get a handgun (or cheap handguns) due to laws or available FFLs, but real easy to get a rifle.

i know, im in one of those states ( MA)
i suggested a hi point carbine. its a long gun and as such easier to get in most states

run about 100-150 used like, 175 new. 9mm or 40 SW. 10 shot magazines. short, light. semi automatic. deadly accurate damn reliable

 

[WinchesterAA]

to say it plainly..

The m44 is outstanding for ranges from 0-10 feet, and 50-900 feet.

in between 10 and 50 it does OK if you're quick with it. Probably the "best" choice for an unknown situation much like any bolt gun would be (IMO atleast).

I love it for it's ability to remove the need to see your target.

 

[DnPRK]

Look at a Mosin for what it was designed to be. In the 1890s, Russian conscripts were not known for markmanship. However, every boy grew up learning how poke things with a long stick. Put a bayonet on the end of that long stick and you have a Mosin. Volley fire and bayonet charges were the tactics of the day.

I don't think I would attempt to defend my home with volley fire and a bayonet charge.

 

[ROMAK IV]

Personally, I feel the Moisin Nagant is the ultimate defensive rifle. While not the perfect choice, it is quite good for just about anything. Most objections are quite unreasonable, I think.

First, they are extremely cheap, and the great majority have been rearsenaled at the very least. Condition ranges from good to excellent, not poor to good. I found an M-44 that in spite of the date, is as god as new.

This has several implications, all of them important: First, just about anyone can afford to own one or even a dozen. This is less than anything else, even your regular pump shotgun. Second, the rifle is non-threatening, even with a long folding bayonet. If guns are banned, this is going to be the last one to get picked up, that's for sure. It's the quintessential Saturday Night Special rifle, except that it doesn't break, it isn't used in crimes, and it's cheap in price, but not cheaply made. Third, being cheap in price, the rifle can be used without worry of being stolen or seized by police as much as would be the case if it was rally pricey. Sure, a criminal could steal one, but he isn't going to use it in a crime, and he isn't going to get much for it with a fence.

The other concerns about noise and over penetration are easily remedied. Being a 30 caliber, most brakes and flash supressors will fit or can easily be adapted to a MN, I have seen them. You can tame the recoil and the fireball at the same time, though not much can be done for the noise. The short range frangible ammunition is still out there, I used to but it for about $2 for twenty. try getting Glasers or other frangible amunition for that price.

Accuracy? How accurate do you have to be? The Soviets used them as very effective Sniper Rifles. It is a bolt action, but once you have solved the sticky bolt problem, it isn't that slow of an action. The Enfield is said to be faster, but i think that was more of a training issue. Mopisns don't scope well for the most part, and the recoil, especially for the carbines would be too much for light framed people. I find it stout, but not too bad, if I don't fire it too many times at once.

I happen to live in a semi-rural area and don't hesitate to grab my M-44 to investigate unnatural noises and possibly dangerous animals. There are always coyotes, and the possibility of wild dogs, but there is also the danger of various rabid animals. I don't, but I could leave the MN loaded, without worry of something braking. While using one for HD in an apartment complex might be a bit crazy, suburban settings aren't out of the question. Drive by shootings are done with automobiles, and at the very least, tagging one with 30 caliber holes in the trunk, would aid in identification of the perpetrators.

I'm very proud of my M-44, which I hand picked out of over a dozen. I floated the barrel and using the rifle in the manner of a scout rifle, I hit 4 inch square cut 2x4's every time at about 20 yards.

To summarize, the best HD firearm is one that is there and ready to use. There are thousands of MN's out there, plenty for everyone, with still the cheapest amunition, most handgun calibers as well, with the exception of 22lr. Nearly everyone can afford one.