Mosin-Nagant as a defense rifle

[TimboKhan]

I've said it before, i'll say it again: The over-penetration argument doesn't hold any water with me. Any round with velocity sufficient to whack a bad guy has enough velocity to fly through said bad guy, then the walls, then whomever is on the other side. If you don't believe me, go look at the tests on box o' truth.

It over-penetrates far too much for use in the home, it's sloooow to shoot, the sights are poor and it only holds five rounds.

The sights are not poor. I won't go so far as to say they are awesome, but they are actually pretty good sights. Also, this "only holds 5 rounds" argument is sort of bothering me... My bedside .357 only holds 6 rounds, and I don't feel the least bit underarmed with that. My carry .357 only holds 5 rounds, and I don't feel underarmed with that either.

 

[Fosbery]

Sorry about the conversion mix-up, I'm always doing that! But yes, if you look hard enough you can find A5s and Bredas for that sort of price. For about £100 you can get Franchis and Fabarms. I guess that's god making up for everything else costing two or three times what you pay in the states. Nylon 66s are pretty cheap here too I seem to remember.

It's true that most anything powerful enough to put down a bad guy is powerful enough to go where it's not meant to, but some #4 buckshot isn't going to penetrate nearly as much as a 7.62x54mm.

In fact, if you do read the Box O' Truth you'll see that a .308. which I suppose is broadly comparable to the Russian cartridge, goes through 12 sheets, splits open the water jug and smashes a brick. The #4 buck goes through just 7 sheets.

Sights, I guess, are personal taste but personally I think they're awful for HD on the Mosin. They're small with no contrast, no ring, and, obviously, no night elements!

Five rounds isn't bad as such, but it's not something to be proud of either. I'd be happy with a 5 round shotgun because it's got so many other advantages. I can't see any advantages to the Mosin, except maybe stopping power, but you can get equal results from a shotgun or an SKS - and you should be able to pick up either for not too much more than a Mosin.

 

[Novus Collectus]

For those that live by themselves or with just a spouse in the country or in a brick house, or in a house surrounded by hills and berms, overpenetraion is not as much of an issue IMO.

 

[TimboKhan]

In fact, if you do read the Box O' Truth you'll see that a .308. which I suppose is broadly comparable to the Russian cartridge, goes through 12 sheets, splits open the water jug and smashes a brick. The #4 buck goes through just 7 sheets

I think you miss the point. That it penetrates through less sheets, it still penetrates through 7 SHEETS. Most people have to worry about 2-6 sheets of sheetrock (3 walls worth). I suppose it is less penetrative, but your just as dead if your standing on the other side.

I also would remind you that I do not use my mosin for home defense. I have several home defense guns scattered about my apartment, but my main two are my .357 revolver and my Bushmaster carbine.

 

[Magnum88C]

Sights, I guess, are personal taste but personally I think they're awful for HD on the Mosin. They're small with no contrast, no ring, and, obviously, no night elements!

Versus the shotgun you'd rather have which has a bead. Oh yes, shotguns CAN have ghost rings, Aimpoints and such, but it's extremely rare. Even if everyone CLAIMED to have such here, it's still the exception, not the rule.
However, Mosin sights work very well.
Awful for HD? Same notch and post as a pistol. They must suck too.
Except for that big front sight hood. Use it to "bracket" the target, you don't even have to line up the rear sight, it'll be close enough as across-the-room distances, and very good for snapshots.

Five rounds isn't bad as such, but it's not something to be proud of either. I'd be happy with a 5 round shotgun because it's got so many other advantages. I can't see any advantages to the Mosin, except maybe stopping power, but you can get equal results from a shotgun or an SKS - and you should be able to pick up either for not too much more than a Mosin.

The primary motivator for a Mosin is price.
An SKS costs twice what a Mosin does, and a shotgun, USED, bought locally (not on the VunderNET), will start at 3x the cost.
The 7.62x39 will zip through things in a modern dwelling just as well as a 7.62x54R, and the SKS has the same sights as a Mosin (and AK), but a shorter sight radius.
Shotgun ammo runs about $1 a shot, and you have a bead sight. Shotgun pellets, if they are of a worthy size for defense, will zip right through modern dwellings as well.
As for noise, there is no such thing as a rifle or shotgun that is less that ear splitting indoors.

A Mosin of any flavor is not a do-all, end-all of defensive firearms. BUT it can be used. Most firearms used for defense are less than optimal. You mak do with what you have.

 

[jpwilly]

Nobody has said the Mosin Nagant isn't a real rifle with real power and if it's all you have - use it for HD. But come on...there are much better options for HD! I personally have 13 rifles, 3 shotguns & 4 handguns...I'd take 4 of those rifles, 3 of those handguns and 1 of those shotguns for HD before I'd reach for a Nagant.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

The mosin would make for a very lousy home defense weapon compared to what is out there.

That said, it's better than a sharp stick.

 

[Magnum88C]

OK, but going off of the first post:

. . .I have better rifles to do those things, and thus choose them.

Or would I?

The Mosin has several things going for it as a defense rifle.
. . .I would agree that the Mosin probably isn't the best home defense rifle. Loud, overkill for caliber, unwieldy. But, if it was all I had handy or all I could afford, it would by-god get the job done! . . . I can think of plenty of realistic situations where it would be a good choice. Not the BEST choice mind you, but a good, functional choice. . . .Anyway, thats just my opinion. I fully realize that there are better choices, and as I mentioned, I have taken advantage of those choices myself. But, I also know that if the situation turns ugly, that $100.00 rifle in my closet will be more than up to the task of keeping me alive.

The gist seemed to me to be that, indeed if it was all you have it would indeed do. The thread then of course launched into "there's better choices, and these are what I think they are", rather than discussing if/how a Mosin could be used to defend one's home and person. I just wanted to point out that everyone's pet choice has disadvantages, and in some ways aren't quite as good a choice as a Mosin. For instance:
1.) ANY handgun choice gives up a LOT of power to the (centerfire) long gun. But you gain maneuverability and a lower noise/flash level.
2.) Shotguns rule for CQB (with a good BUCKSHOT load), but you pay in terms of recoil and noise.
3.) Centerfire rifles (thinking assault rifles here -- I know the definition of assaultrifle, but I'm tired of being PC about it), have advantages in power, recoil control, optics options, etc. but are FAR louder than even 18.5" shotguns, are like flame throwers (an AK with surplus ammo isn't far behind a Mosin short rifle in the flash department).

You have to weigh your choices and choose according to your needs.
If your overiding descision factor is price, Mosins and their ammo are the cheapest centerfire option going (some people arre really in the situation of "buy a Mosin or buy nothing for a long time). Plus even hunting ammo (Wolf Gold, Barnaul, etc) softpoints are running about $10/20 -- cheaper than any other caliber out there. So the thing can do double duty in any locale that allows rifles, whereas in a lot of areas, the rifles optimal for killing people can't be legally used to kill deer.

 

[Gustav]

In 1891 it would have been a good choice by 1898 or 1914 not as good and by 1942 nearly every other design had more to offer IMO.

For a novice the bolt is slow and awkward to manipulate and reload it has a capacity of 4 plus 1 and uses a rimmed cartridge which unless one has a Finnish Mosin with the modified magazine well can cause an occasional failure to feed a round up to the bolt.

Rimmed rounds often hang up while using stripper clips.

As bolt actions go a Springfield or Mauser or Enfield (google mad minute) is faster to manipulate the bolt on or work the action.

For the average person who has neighbors in occupied dwellings nearby a .30 caliber high power rifle is not a good or safe choice to use since each shot fired can kill or maim and innocent neighbor and in so doing it gives the antis a good reason to complain.

Think over penetration and safe BACKSTOP when shooting!:banghead:

If you had no neighbors or lived in a box canyon and did not consider the action or rifle type to be a handicap then yes it may be the right choice for you.

If it is all you can honestly afford then that is one thing but to be cheap and on purpose have one as a go to gun is IMO foolishness as there are better options and designs out there.

As a cabin or animal defense rifle yes but if there is a chance of armed confrontation no thanks, I would want a semi auto rifle or handgun or a lever action rifle at least.

FWIW personally I know of two men who owe their lives to an adversary using a Mosin Nagant rifle.

One is a Vietnam War veteran the other a Korean War veteran both of whom are still here today because the men they shot and killed were not able to get off a fast enough second shot using a Mosin Nagant.

One engaged and killed a VC pointman who fired first as they both crested a hill on a trail, he used his M-14 and emptied it into and towards the guy as he fell wounded by a bullet that went through his leg.

The other gentleman used his M-2 .30 Carbine successfully ending the threat after a Chinese soldier armed with a MN 1944 carbine shot first and missed my friend he did not get to work the action to get off a second round.

These are only my opinions worth what you paid for them not trying to flame or rain on anyones parade, just think common sense pick the best tool for the task at hand and safety is no accident.

 

[Magnum88C]

For a novice the bolt is slow and awkward to manipulate and reload it has a capacity of 4 plus 1 and uses a rimmed cartridge which unless one has a Finnish Mosin with the modified magazine well can cause an occasional failure to feed a round up to the bolt.

Finnish Mosin? No, they all have the cartridge interrupter to prevent rim locking.

 

[Fosbery]

I think everyone has said what I was going to say really. I wasn't saying the Mosin is useless for SHTF/home defence. It's just one of the worst firearms options you could choose. If it's that or a kitchen knife, then the Mosin is probably better. If it's a Mosin or a musket, I'd pick the Mosin. But if you can get anything else, it's probably better than a Mosin.

 

[Gustav]

Magnum88C

FWIW

The Finnish 28-30 (often marked HV) and M-39 Mosin Nagants have a modification of the magazine body or magazine well, it consists of basically two semi circular indentations or dimples to improve cartridge feeding and alignment for reliability.

It helps in preventing cartridge rim interference jams which occur when the top rounds base or rim catches behind the cartridge beneath its base or rim.

AFAIK only the Finn 28/30 and M-39 have this alteration and none of the other Mosin Nagants do.

Any .303 British or 7.62x54R rimmed ammunition shooter sooner or later can experience a jam when the round on tops rim gets caught behind the next round beneath its rim especially if rapid firing and reloading using stripper clips if any of the rounds end up being reloaded improperly or not properly loaded or lined up one in front of the other.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Gustav, I have a Russian M44 and it has the magazine interrupt keeping the rounds below the round to be fed seperate enough so the rims will not touch. It does not matter how they are fed into the mag, the rims will never interfere with the round to be fed.
I have read that all Mosin Nagants going back to the origional design have this feature.

 

[TimboKhan]

Wow, Magnum actually read my first post and saw that I was not advocating the Mosin as the best choice for home defense. I have literally said at least four times on this thread that it isn't even my first choice, or second, or even third.

But, with that aside, the discussion has remained fairly level-headed and interesting. Let me give my two cents on a couple of things:

1. I have already addressed penetration, and will not repeat myself. I suppose it is a personal ethos more than a practical one, because bullets fired from a firearm penetrate, period. Perhaps they penetrate differently, but the still penetrate.

2. I would also point out the flaw in this logic...

One engaged and killed a VC pointman who fired first as they both crested a hill on a trail, he used his M-14 and emptied it into and towards the guy as he fell wounded by a bullet that went through his leg.

Hey, I am glad your friend lived, but he dumped a whole mess of bullets into killing a guy and still got wounded. Perhaps for some this speaks of the advantage of more bullets, but to me it says that if the VC had aimed a bit more carefully, he would have gotten your buddy. As it was, he took him out of the fight. I certainly mean no disrespect to your buddy, and I am damn glad that the other guy died for his country instead of the other way around, but it seems faulty to imply the fight was won because of superior weaponry. I am going to get flamed for this, but it sounds like it was really more of a case of luck.

3.

The other gentleman used his M-2 .30 Carbine successfully ending the threat after a Chinese soldier armed with a MN 1944 carbine shot first and missed my friend he did not get to work the action to get off a second round.

The Chinese soldier could have had anything from a Mosin to SKS to and AK and it still probably would ahve ended the same. It's better to shoot straight than shoot fast, and he made the mistake of missing. Again, not wishing it were the other way around, just pointing out that 1 round can end a fight if 100 rounds miss the target.

4. While not the only point I was trying to make, let me address the issue of cost. One of the things that I said was a plus for a Mosin was that someone could afford to buy the rifle and a whole ton of ammo to practice with. Regardless of the particular platform you choose (and this includes you shotgun advocates), nothing, and I mean nothing, makes a bigger difference than training. Most of us won't be attending a Thunder Ranch class anytime soon, but pretty much all of us can get out and shoot at least 100 rounds a month. With a Mosin, it just makes it cheaper. You might have the coolest blackticle rifle on the market, with the finest lasers and lights and optics available, but you know what? In the end it boils down to practice. What do you do if your AR stovepipes? What do you do if you hit a bad primer? If you don't know what to do with that bad round, the next 20 aren't going to make a single bit of difference. Anyway, the point of all this is to say that I can now buy roughly 5 times more 7.62x54 than I can .223 ammo for the same dollar. Whats the better platform then? I maintain that the Mosin that you practice with is better than the $2000.00 AR wondergun that you don't, but some of you may disagree.

5. Finally, let me see if we can get this past the whole "better options" available argument and get some more responses on the Mosin as a SHTF rifle (be it Zombies, Earthquakes, Fire or Weather). Earlier in the thread, a guy said that he was in Katrina and that he didn't feel that the Mosin would have been all that great because it would have been a pain to haul around. I can see his point, but I still think that the Mosin's ruggedness gives it a pretty big leg up. I will concede that it might be a pain to haul around, but it is a comfort to know that it will not lock up at the first hint of water, dirt or zombie guts. Not that a properly maintained AR will lock up, but the chances are higher than with a Mosin. Additionally, I don't think I personally want an auto if things get bad enough. It seems a little counter-intuitive to say that, but if I am not going to be able to get supplies and other stuff, I don't want a rifle that can lose not only it's mag, but 20 or 30 valuable rounds of ammo with it. If I am in a position where thats not such a big deal, I probably would go with an AR or an SKS, but I might not be in that position.

 

[Magnum88C]

Any .303 British or 7.62x54R rimmed ammunition shooter sooner or later can experience a jam when the round on tops rim gets caught behind the next round beneath its rim especially if rapid firing and reloading using stripper clips if any of the rounds end up being reloaded improperly or not properly loaded or lined up one in front of the other.

I understand your point, Gustav, but the cuts the Finns made are not what keeps the rims from locking, it's the interrupter. It;'s the little metal piece that pops out and keep the top round in the magazine separate from the ones below it. If the interrputer is functioning, the rounds CANNOT lock rims. I purposely loaded Mosins with the round having its rim BEHIND the round below, all fed flawlessly. I did this for 100 rounds, and am convinced it works. In fact it was a design necessity of the rifle. The reason we call them Mosin Nagants is because a Russian, Sergei Mosin designed the rifle, but the Imperial Russian government refused to accept the rifle unless it incorporated the interrupter designed by Leon Nagant, a Belgian. Now this rim lock jam CAn happen on Enfields and I've experienced it many a time, even when the rounds were loaded properly into the chargers.

5. Finally, let me see if we can get this past the whole "better options" available argument and get some more responses on the Mosin as a SHTF rifle (be it Zombies, Earthquakes, Fire or Weather). Earlier in the thread, a guy said that he was in Katrina and that he didn't feel that the Mosin would have been all that great because it would have been a pain to haul around. I can see his point, but I still think that the Mosin's ruggedness gives it a pretty big leg up. I will concede that it might be a pain to haul around, but it is a comfort to know that it will not lock up at the first hint of water, dirt or zombie guts. Not that a properly maintained AR will lock up, but the chances are higher than with a Mosin.

OK, in this type of circumstance, a Mosin is a good choice. I hear the wails of protest now "But it's slow! But it only has 5 rounds!" OK, let's look at the actual happenings in Katrina, not internet fantasies. FACT is, looters (multiple) were often ran off with the mere display of a gun, and in at least two instances I know of, a pair of shots fired from a revolver. Now, internet fantasy has them running around the corner, gearing up and executing a human wave attack because "they know you only have 4 rounds left.", and 4 guys are willing to take bullets so the others can take your TV and beer. Real life: looters ran away and didn't come back. Now people are going to tell me that they WON'T run from a rifle with a 12-17" bayonet on the end (depending on if you're using a long rifle or a short rifle), and shoots 3 feet of flame out of the end, and shakes the ground with its report?
Then there's some advantages to the Mosin. Reliability. So reliable that German troops were known to pick them up in preference to the much vaunted Mauser. Why? Because the Mausers would freeze up and were a bitch to get operating again. With the wide clearances on the Mosin, you just smack it hard a couple of times to break up the ice and you're back in business. Those clearances also make it very tolerant of muck and mud.
Power. When one of da homies dat want yo beer is poppin' caps at you from behind a cement block wall/barrier, one round will ruin his day.
Good sights for the mission. "WHAT!!!" Yep. Post and notch sights, just like the handgun you use for fast shooting at short range, except you have a longer sight radius, a two-handed weapon, and a flatter trajectory. "But they aren't good for 600 meter shooting!" True, but chances are, neither are you. Not a whole lot of people even have a place to practice at such ranges, and anyone that actually does that kind of shooting will tell you that if you don't practice regularly, you won't be able to make the hits. The vast majority of infantry combat happens at under 200 meters, with over 90% of it happening at under 100. Mosin sights are just fine for that kind of shooting. As a civilian, your engagements are most likely to be much shorter. Which brings us to snapshots. The Mosins make this easy with their round front sight hood. Just shoulder the weapon, use the sight hood as a "caveman EOTech" and fire. At close quarters (under 50 meters) the rear sights will be "close enough" without having to be exactly aligned.

Can most of this be said about certain other weapons? Sure. But this is about Mosins, and the fact is, they can do the job and can do it well, despite opinions to the contrary. You adapt your tactics to your weapon. Those who can't, and insist that everything HAS to run like their [pet rifle], won't do so well if they don't have that.

Additionally, I don't think I personally want an auto if things get bad enough. It seems a little counter-intuitive to say that, but if I am not going to be able to get supplies and other stuff, I don't want a rifle that can lose not only it's mag, but 20 or 30 valuable rounds of ammo with it. If I am in a position where thats not such a big deal, I probably would go with an AR or an SKS, but I might not be in that position.

Now, I'm going to divert a little from the strictly Mosin talk because you added this in. I'd trust an AK or a FAL to handle the roughest conditions just as much as I would a bolt gun. They've proven themselves reliable in the worst conditions for decades.
An AR, not so much.

 

[xd45gaper]

dont forget when you run out of ammo you can use it as a spear with that bayonet on the end!!

 

[Acheron]

I think Magnum88C brings up a lot of good points. The most important one is that any kind of realistic engagement would occur at 200m or less. I think that far too many people have tacticool dreams of being a sniper and making those 'one shot kills' at 800m. For these distances a Mosin will work just fine, and the sights are more than adequate. While I will admit that the Mosin doesn't have the best sights on the market, they about as good as an AK's.

In a SHTF situation like Katrina, where your opponents are most likely looters or gangbangers the mere sight of a M91/30 with the bayonet fixed should be enough to get most looters running. If they don't, then fire a shot. If that doesn't get 'em scrambling for cover then maybe Darwin has decided that their time has come.

I think that the Mosin will do just fine as a SHTF rifle and I would gladly take mine in such a situation.

 

[Cosmoline]

I gotta be ready for when Star goes rogue. Look at her giving me the stink eye. She knows what I ate for dinner last night!

 

[Panzerschwein]

I can rack the bolt on my Mosin very, very quickly.

It's something I've practiced for years.

The trick is you keep the rifle shouldered, and keep looking down the sights, and rack the bolt with the strong hand. Don't even move your face off the rifle, it isn't necessary. The strong hand/arm does all the work, the gun stays on the shoulder and the target stays in the sights after follow through.

I am 100% confident that I could get off the shots quickly enough for home defense with a Mosin, and the weapon has devastating stopping power BUT it is very loud. I like the Mosin as an out-of-doors defense rifle, not indoors, for this very reason... but would it get the job done? I have absolute confidence that it would, five times over if I do my part.

 

[Robert]

7 year old thread... Bad zombie, back in the grave with you.