Mosin Nagant questions

[monotonous_iterancy]

I've had the opportunity to fire my Mosin Nagant some. It's a a blast to shoot, even though it kicks hard, and the surplus is very cheap. But it's inspired me to look into it a little more, and it's left me with some questions.

First of, mine was made in 1944, so I've always assumed that it was used in World War II. But I did the "bullet test" to see if it was counter-bored or not, and it wasn't. But when I look down the chamber, the bore looks great. All the rifling is there. That old thread I had when I mentioned rust, I think was just the lighting. It looks fine. But if it was made during the war, then how could the bore be in such good condition? The stock isn't pristine. There's two small sections that have clearly been refurbished with another stock, because it's different colored.

Also, mine didn't come with a bayonet. Why?

 

[JHenry]

just a shot in the dark but your mosin probably hasnt seen much more than the inside of crate

 

[liberty -r- death]

The stock may not have been repaired. It may have been built that way. Many solid wood (non laminate) Mosin stocks are not from a single piece of wood, but mated pieces such as your description. Who know why yours doesn't have the bayonet. Dealer may have forgotten to include it or they forgot to put them in the crate in Russia.

 

[jason41987]

yours is probably an M38 then if it had no bayonet... the M44s has a folding bayonet that was fixed to the rifle.. M38s didnt see much, and werent used much because the russians felt they needed to put a bayonet back on it so the M44 was made... many of these rifles were counterbored new in case a soldier did something to damage the muzzle, he wouldnt also damage the rifling as well, so it was often to make the rifle able to take more abuse than to simply cut away bad rifling

you can simply look into the muzzle of the rifle to tell if its counterbored or not

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Actually, it's a 91/30. It was my first gun, it was a birthday present from a surplus store. $175

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Most Mosins were also rearsenaled after the war so it's possible that your rifle got a new barrel postwar...the date on the receiver really only tells you when the receiver was made. It's possible your receiver was made in late 1944 and only assembled from spare parts after the war. It's also possible that your rifle was used in the war but once again, if made in late 1944 there wasn't a whole lot of war left to see. It's also not really possible to rule out that the rifle saw action just because the bore isn't bad...it's possible it was simply well maintained (I know I would do my best to maintain my rifle if my life depended on it). That or even if in use on the front, the user of your rifle may just have never fired much. Heck, the user of your rifle may have become a casualty carrying the rifle, thus adding to the beat up nature of the stock but not really messing up the bore/barrel.

Anyways, long rambling story short...you'll never really know. In terms of the bayonet thing...it just depends who you get them from and can just be a fluke luck of the draw thing.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

It seems as though the majority of carbines are counterbored, but relatively few 91/30 rifles are counterbored. None of my Soviet-refurbished 91/30s (and I have a bunch) are counterbored.

Most bores on refurbished rifles are in pretty good shape, unless they were abused after import. The Soviets didn't bother refurbishing shot-out rifles - why would they? Worn-out rifles were disassembled, the good parts were reused, and the bad parts were scrapped. I have several Mosins (Soviet and Finnish) which have new barrels on old receivers.

You'd have to ask the seller why it didn't come with a bayonet. If it's an M38, it wasn't issued with and will not accept a bayonet. If it's an M44, it should have one permanently affixed. If it's an M91/30, it will take one. They're easy to find.

Your rifle may have seen frontline service in WWII and been well cared for by the soldier who carried it, or it may have gone into stores and never been issued, or it might have been carried by someone guarding a tank plant in the Urals, a thousand miles from the front lines. It's impossible to say at this remove.

 

[Cosmoline]

If you find a little square with a slash through it on the stock or metal, that's usually a mark indicating it has been rearsenaled. Most of the ones for sale here have been. They often counterbored but it wasn't always necessary. This was done after the war before the rifles were put into storage or reissued. The process removed pretty much any battle damage, so it's all but impossible to know if a rearsenaled rifle actually saw anything like combat. Most didn't, as a statistical matter.

The best way to get a Mosin that did likely see the front is to find a Civil Guard issued M28 or M28-30 from the Finns and cross-reference the guard unit with known deployments during the Winter War. No Soviet weapons have that kind of documentation, at least not that anyone in the west has ever found.

 

[morcey2]

Many of the mosins made it through the war in fairly good condition. Quite a few of the later ones ( late 1944 on) were probably never used in combat. I've seen quite a few that have bores that _are_ brand new.

The year on a mosin is on the barrel, not the receiver. There's a date on the underside of the receiver tang, but lots of 1944's don't have it to speed up production. The receiver on a 1944 M91/30 should be a high-wall, unmachined-right-rear, round receiver. If it is a low-wall or hex, it's been rebarreled in 1944.

As for the bayonet, you may want to find one. Almost all russian mosins were sighted in with the bayonet fixed, M38 and Cossack excepted (and possibly a few other carbines).

If you find a finn captured M91/30, it will be counterbored. They did it as a matter of course. Finn barrelled 91/30's won't be counterbored unless someone really did a number on the muzzle/crown.

Matt

 

[One_Jackal]

I am reasonably sure my 1930 Dragoon hasn't been shot very much. It looks like someone tried to sight it in with a file (I had to cut over 1/4" off the sight to get it on target). Then it was put in a crate. It stayed in that crate until I bought it.

 

[geo57]

Jason41987 wrote
quote :

" many of these rifles were counterbored new in case a soldier did something to damage the muzzle, he wouldnt also damage the rifling as well, so it was often to make the rifle able to take more abuse than to simply cut away bad rifling "


Please provide a credible link to support this claim . I have never heard this before nor have read anything like this including all the info read @ 7.62x54r.com . Thanks in advance.

 

[Tempest 455]

Some surplus rifles are just that, surplus and never used. Luck of the draw. I have a 1928 that was never issued and looks like it just came out of a factory.

 

[wrench]

If you find a finn captured M91/30, it will be counterbored

I have several Finn captured m91/30's that are not counterbored. Finn's did not just do it as a matter of course.

 

[fatcat4620]

Did your mosin come with the accessory kit?

 

[Cosmoline]

The year on a mosin is on the barrel, not the receiver.

The barrel year is on the barrel. The official year for legal purposes is on the tang.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

^^ Unfortunately no, it didn't come with accessories. It still has the cleaning rod screwed in, but thats it. It also came with a rifle bag.

 

[mgkdrgn]

1) it's in such good condition because after WWII the Russians collect them all up and ran them back through their arsenals to rebuild them to line-issue specs. They were then slathered in cosmoline and stored, waiting on WWIII. There is no such thing as an "un-issued- Mosin Nagant 91/30. The Russians were desperate short of small arms all during WWII, these things all shot at Nazis.
2) You didn't get the bayonet probably because whom ever you bought it from lost it (I'm assuming you didn't by it from a dealer). Then you probably also didn't get the "goodie bag" that comes with them "new"; tool kit, ammo pouch, dog collar sling.
3) The barrel would only be counterbored if there was damage to the crown/rifling that needed to be repaired ... mainly caused by using the cleaning rod w/o the cap (which you probably don't have ... do DO NOT use that rod!) You are going to use a bore snake to clean ... so you won't have that problem.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Jason41987 wrote
quote :

" many of these rifles were counterbored new in case a soldier did something to damage the muzzle, he wouldnt also damage the rifling as well, so it was often to make the rifle able to take more abuse than to simply cut away bad rifling "


Please provide a credible link to support this claim . I have never heard this before nor have read anything like this including all the info read @ 7.62x54r.com . Thanks in advance.

Then why do you think they were counterbored?

 

[geo57]

Magkdrgn, what I'm saying is I dispute jason41987's claim that some barrels were counterbored when " NEW" , never issued or used . Maybe you are too. I wasn't sure who you were directing your question to.

As far as using a steel rod to clean.... Most of the damage done to rifles from cleaning is due to vigorous swabbing from the muzzle end. A person can use a steel rod ( many people prefer them ) as long as you use some reasonable care & common sense and swab from the breech.

 

[offthepaper]

many of these rifles were counterbored new in case a soldier did something to damage the muzzle, he wouldnt also damage the rifling as well, so it was often to make the rifle able to take more abuse than to simply cut away bad rifling

HUH??

You might want to re-check that.

 

[Roadking Rider]

My 1942 91/30 Izzy is counter bored. It's pretty darned obvious it was done when it was refurbed. The crown doesn't have a mark on it. It also has a laminate stock on it that I'm not sure was original to that rifle year.

 

[Crossfire027]

Did it have gooey stuff on it, AKA cosmoline? If it did, it was most likely built, test fired, sealed, and stored. It's either a m38, an m91/59, or m91/38 because it lacks a bayonet. Post some pics, including the stamp that's right below the rear sight.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Magkdrgn, what I'm saying is I dispute jason41987's claim that some barrels were counterbored when " NEW" , never issued or used . Maybe you are too. I wasn't sure who you were directing your question to.

As far as using a steel rod to clean.... Most of the damage done to rifles from cleaning is due to vigorous swabbing from the muzzle end. A person can use a steel rod ( many people prefer them ) as long as you use some reasonable care & common sense and swab from the breech.

Ok, gotcha.

No, they were not "counterbored new".

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

I don't think mine has cosmoline on it. Maybe the dealer cleaned it off before he sold it. Mine also has a sling.

Also, the cleaning rod in my cleaning kit (and by cleaning kit, I mean a commercial one, not a surplus one), doesn't go all the way down the bore from the breech. The bolt area blocks the handle. So the last time I cleaned it, I ran it from the muzzle end to get the area I couldn't reach. That wouldn't hurt it with a brass rod would it?

 

[geo57]

Chances are great there will be cosmoline everywhere inside, in the bbl & chamber ( likely almost fossilized in the chamber ) under the wood, inside the bolt, etc. You will want to get some disassembly instructions and take it completely down, including taking the bolt apart before you shoot it. Be sure to get a firing pin protrusion gauge when re-assembling the bolt and check per instruction. Pay special attention to the chamber and brush it well or fired cases will stick.

If using care, yes, you can clean from the muzzle for part of it if your rod is shorter than your bbl. / chamber. Clean / brush the chamber from the breech though. It likely will take some effort. All 4 of mine have. If you need help I'll try to answer questions that may come up. Feel free to pm or email me. I don't profess to be an expert but I have had 4 of them, hunted with 2 of them and have taken all 4 apart before testing. Best of luck.