mosin nagant

[Morrey]

I love firearms, but most of my experiences are with modern guns that are currently available or currently produced. I watched a movie recently "Enemy at the Gates" about a Russian sniper with a Mosin Nagant. This is a very interesting gun from WWII and I was hoping someone might tell me a quick fact or two abut it.

What is the caliber and is ammo currently available?
Were they unusually accurate or is this gun simply all they had to use?
Are these guns collectors items, and/or are they somewhat available?
What is a price of one in nice, shootable condition?

Thanks for any feedback, and BTW, that was a really good movie.

 

[WardenWolf]

The Mosin Nagant is chambered in 7.62x54R. Ammo is widely available from many sources, and reasonably priced. Mosin accuracy varies widely based on barrel condition. One with a bright, shiny barrel can be very accurate, particularly if you cork the barrel or perform other easy accurizing steps.

They're collectible, but they're still pretty widely available. Check Gunbroker. However, they do not normally come with a scope. Original scoped Mosin snipers fetch a huge premium. I've seen $500 to $750. However, reproduction scopes and mounts are available and you can turn an otherwise good Mosin into an accurate sniper replica for far cheaper.

Price on one in shootable condition currently ranges from around $150 to $250 for an M91/30 (the standard Mosin variant).

Here's an ex-sniper Mosin Nagant. It's already got the milling needed for the scope mount, so gunsmith could restore it to sniper condition fairly cheaply. You'd also need to get the bolt handle bent, but there's many places out there that offer that service.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547293997

And here's one someone has already done a sniper conversion on:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547537492

 

[Morrey]

The Mosin Nagant is chambered in 7.62x54R. Ammo is widely available from many sources, and reasonably priced. Mosin accuracy varies widely based on barrel condition. One with a bright, shiny barrel can be very accurate, particularly if you cork the barrel or perform other easy accurizing steps.

They're collectible, but they're still pretty widely available. Check Gunbroker. However, they do not normally come with a scope. Original scoped Mosin snipers fetch a huge premium. I've seen $500 to $750. However, reproduction scopes and mounts are available and you can turn an otherwise good Mosin into an accurate sniper replica for far cheaper.

Price on one in shootable condition currently ranges from around $150 to $250 for an M91/30 (the standard Mosin variant).

Here's an ex-sniper Mosin Nagant. It's already got the milling needed for the scope mount, so gunsmith could restore it to sniper condition fairly cheaply. You'd also need to get the bolt handle bent, but there's many places out there that offer that service.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547293997

And here's one someone has already done a sniper conversion on:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547537492

This is exceptionally interesting, and thank you for the reply.

I see the difference in the straight bolt handle and the bent bolt handle more in terms of what I am used to shooting. Back in the day of it's glory, I assume the bolt was straight and not bent down as we see in example 2? Does modifying the gun from original alter the collectability or value of the Mosin?

 

[WardenWolf]

The original Russian sniper Mosin Nagants had their bolt handles turned down so they could be used with the scope. After the war, many sniper rifles were converted back to standard infantry rifles and they were refitted with straight bolt handles, which is what a normal Mosin comes with. Modifying the gun doesn't harm its collector's value as long as it's done in a historically correct way. In fact, a correct Mosin sniper conversion can somewhat increase the value.

 

[justin22885]

they are generally inaccurate compared to other bolt actions, poorly built (most made in a hurry for war) and mass produced in high enough quantities to actually be cheap.. its ammunition is available and up until recently you could get .308 performance for 20 cents a round, this has changed since and now its closer to the same price as .308 without the advantages.. its an outdated under-underpressured rimmed cartridge from 1891 that the russians are frankly too cheap to replace

 

[Reloadron]

The rifles have a pretty extensive and somewhat interesting history. For example here in the US our friends at Westinghouse made more than great toasters. You may want to give this a read to learn about Westinghouse making the rifles and more important why. I remember during the early 90s when my wife and I had a gun shop and also worked the gun shows promoting the shop. The Mosin Nagants were pouring in on the surplus market, the Model 96 guns leading the pack. Kathy suggested we buy some so I bought ten for $39 each. They were packed in cosmoline so I began dragging them to the do it yourself car wash and between high pressure and engine gunk they cleaned up well. Sold them clean at $69 so that went well and covered our table cost at shows.

Seriously, there is no way to cover all the variations like the sniper flavors and shorter Model 44 rifles in a single post. There are volumes of text and books written on the rifles. Interesting stuff.

Ron

 

[WardenWolf]

Don't listen to Justin. The longest confirmed sniper kill of World War II was still done with a Mosin Nagant at over half a mile. Yes, they very widely in condition. But they can be made to shoot very accurately as seen in THIS THREAD.

 

[dragon813gt]

I personally can't wait for their availability to dwindle along w/ really cheap ammo. The ammo has already started to dry up. Once the availability drives prices up the rifles will be judged on their merits, not their price. I own one and found it fun for a little bit. It's not that accurate, has poor ergonomics and weighs a good bit. Sure there is nostalgia involved w/ them. But this is what clouds people's judgement. There are a lot better rifles to come out of WW2. But their prices are significantly higher.

 

[Reloadron]

For those with a more sincere interest in the Mosin Nagant (remember the subject of the thread) there are books like:
The Mosin-Nagant Rifle, 6th Edition (For collectors only)

Although the Mosin-Nagant rifle was in use for more than sixty years by half the world's military forces, no book in the English language has ever traced its development and identified all its models and variations as manufactured around the world, including in the United States. No provided the part-by-part information needed by the collector and shooter.

This is the first book in English, ever written about the Mosin-Nagant. It identifies every single model manufactured in Russia, France, the United States, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Finland, China and North Korea. Every part is described with all changes and markings, making it possible to identify the national origins of not only the rifle as a whole, but of every part.

Chapters provide a history of its development and use from 1892 to its last manufacture in Hungary and China in the mid-1950s. Then each part is analyzed showing all changes in chronological order.

Pretty cool as the manufacture of the rifle was pretty widespread. Including Remington and Westinghouse here in the US. How good this book actually is I can't say as I don't own a copy.

Ron

 

[entropy]

The original Russian sniper Mosin Nagants had their bolt handles turned down so they could be used with the scope. After the war, many sniper rifles were converted back to standard infantry rifles and they were refitted with straight bolt handles, which is what a normal Mosin comes with. Modifying the gun doesn't harm its collector's value as long as it's done in a historically correct way. In fact, a correct Mosin sniper conversion can somewhat increase the value.

Not to real collectors, only to guys that watched 'Enema at the Gates" and want one real bad.

Lapin's book is the Bible for Mosin collectors. as is Karl Heinz-Wrobel's "Drei Linien: die Gewehre Mosin-Nagant" (well, if you can read German. I don't believe it has been translated into English yet.)

 

[ojh]

There are Mosins like refurbished run-of-the-mill M91/30s and M44s that more often than not aren't very accurate, but can be tuned better. Then there are Mosins like Finnish M28-30 and M39 that more often than not ARE accurate right from the start. Just look what this guy did with an M28/30 during the Winter War.

 

[Morrey]

There are Mosins like refurbished run-of-the-mill M91/30s and M44s that more often than not aren't very accurate, but can be tuned better. Then there are Mosins like Finnish M28-30 and M39 that more often than not ARE accurate right from the start. Just look what this guy did with an M28/30 during the Winter War.

This rifle, and the soldiers who used them, have a most interesting history. I wonder if the snipers who used them were able to have access to a quantity of them and hand pick the one they most favored?

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I've owned several examples and think they are great pieces of history.

As far as accuracy goes:
Yes, some mosins were improved, scoped, etc.. but the other 100 million +/- of them are 2"-4" at 100 yard adventures. With the wide front post, basically if you can see it, line it up with the post you can hit it.

In it's surplus condition: It think they were an adequate battle rifle (was old even by ww2 standards), they can be an acceptable hunting rifle, but they are a really bad target rifle.

That Said, I drag mine out to the range and shoot them every so often, but it is the history is what makes them really neat.

(I've got one from 1939 that even though it was refurbished, shows lots of surface pitting, barrel wear, dings, etc.... If that think could talk!)

 

[boom boom]

Upside,
Mosins are tough and easy to work on. Spare parts are readily available. The 7.62x54r is similar to the .30-06 in its versatility on reloading and contra above opinions is readily available in cheap non-milsurp steel cased imported ammo. The days of .10 or less per round milsurp ammo is pretty much over. There are also considerable variations in Mosins that collectors can get with different arsenals, different countries, sniper models, and rifle/carbine type variations. It is also common to get goodies such as ammo pouches, cleaning tools, slings, and bayonets with this rifle. Right now, it is a cheaper field to collect than Mausers for example or U.S. Military arms. Interwar Russian Mosins as well as the U.S. produced Westinghouse Mosins can be quite nice. Believe that the French produced some early 91's as well but have never seen one in person. Finn Mosins probably represent the cream of the crop in Mosins as far as accuracy and trigger pull, genuine Russian sniper rifles probably come in second. Understand Westinghouse Mosins are nice as well. Some regular issue rifles do well with accurization that is fairly cheap.

Both of my Mosins are prewar 91/30's with one being a hex receiver and the other a round receiver made just before the Russians were at war. Both have decent fit and finish.

Downsides:
Awkward hard to use safety, some problems with the interruptor which aids in feeding rimmed cartridges to prevent rimlock, poor triggers, awkward handling due to long barrel, somewhat heavy recoil comparatively speaking, and the often coarse workmanship on these rifles especially WWII era rifles. Not popular for sporterizing due to these constraints. Machining marks can be quite bad on some examples along with general lack of fit and finish on stocks. The shellac that Russians often put on rifles did not help matter of Mosin looks any. Shellac chips, gathers grime quite efficiently, and gives a yellowish cast on the stocks. You will also often find parts mismatched or force matched such as bolts and barrles, often find counterbored barrels, etc. as Mosins became war reserves for the Russians after sufficient number of AK's were produced. Russians were not interested in collectibility but rather could the weapon go bang.

Believe it or not, rimmed cartridges do have one benefit--they usually seal the end of the chamber to some extent and direct gas from cartridge separations away from the shooter. Remember, rimmed cartridges were created because the metallurgy of the time meant wide variations in ammo quality. I am sure that someone has blown up a Mosin but I do not recall seeing widespread controversies similar to Spanish Mausers, American Springfields, or Krag, etc. about receiver stretching, shattering because of being too hard, bolts and receiver lugs cracking due to hot ammo, etc.

BTW, Lapin is a good source for deciphering the variations in Mosins and their parts but do not expect other than a cursory history of the Mosin.

 

[Panzerschwein]

poorly built (most made in a hurry for war)

Wartime Mosin Nagants were NOT poorly built. Sure, they were rough around the edges and fit and finish was given low priority, but they did not sacrifice reliability or effectiveness. There is nothing wrong with the quality of 1939-1945 Mosin Nagants.

 

[ojh]

This rifle, and the soldiers who used them, have a most interesting history. I wonder if the snipers who used them were able to have access to a quantity of them and hand pick the one they most favored?

These are good online sources:

http://7.62x54r.net/
http://mosinnagant.net/
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MAIN.html

The Jaegerplatoon site has the most reliable information about Finnish and Finn-captured Russian Mosins. In particular, info about the M/28-30 can be found at http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES2.htm, and about the various sniper versions at http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES7.htm. Simo Häyhä's M/28-30 was not a dedicated sniper version, it was his Civil Guard rifle that had been in his personal possession long before the war broke out. Häyhä did not like optics, he did his magic with open sights.

 

[joem1945]

When they first were offered for sale I bought 2 91/30's and a M44. I'm sure they were refurbished but they looked liked new. They are accurate and fun to shoot. Cheap surplus ammo is drying up, since I reload I'm not worried.

 

[herrwalther]

My Mosin got to be very accurate with very little work. After the cosmoline cleared, my Mosin was having wildly inconsistent trigger weights ranging from 10-12 pounds. A few YT videos later and some work with my dremel, I got the trigger pull down to a boringly consistent 6.5 pounds. Not a target rifle weight by any means but would work fine for hunting.

Mosin can be a fun rifle to learn basic gun smithing on as well. Mine, on the first trip to the range would not eject the spent casing after firing. What the H? Did I miss some cosmoline somewhere? Broken part? Bothered me for weeks when it sat in my safe and was too busy to look into it. Turns out the ejector had a few burrs on it that I smoothed out with some sand paper. Worked like a charm after that.

With a few minor upgrades and smithing, I ended up selling the rifle for more than I bought it for when ammo started disappearing off shelves in my area.