Most accurate milsurp of the three kings

[cracked butt]

Just my opinion, but I think the people voting K31 don't have much experience with Swedes...

Pretty much right.

The K-31s are accurate, just not quite as good as a swede 96. I have 3 of each, despite the better sights on the k-31s, my best K-31 only shoots as good as my worst swede, and that's still saying a lot. For what you get for the money, I think the k-31 is a far better deal, with the prices of swedes going through the roof.

 

[longhorngunman]

Hi Luomu, welcome to THR! It's great to have someone from Finland chiming in about these rifles especially the M39. I just got it last week and the fit and finish is miles ahead of any of the Mosins I've seen. You are also right about the sights, much nicer than any of my other milsurps. The peep sights on a 03A3 and M1 Garand are in a League of their own as far as I'm concerned. Mine is a 1942 "B" barrel with the SA stamp. I thought that meant Sako made but I read the other night that "VKT" made all the B barrels . Maybe you can straighten me out. I love the feel of the M39 stock compared to the Mosins. Can't wait to get a chance to shoot this gun. I hope fellow THR's take some time to read up on Finland's history. What your nation accomplished by fending off the Evil Empire is amazing! On another note, it seems that accuracy wise it seems you can't go wrong with either the K31 or swede. I'd think on big game there would be an advantage with the K31's use of larger bullets.

 

[Luomu]

Mine is a 1942 "B" barrel with the SA stamp. I thought that meant Sako made but I read the other night that "VKT" made all the B barrels . Maybe you can straighten me out.

Hi, Longhorn.
I have my barrel similarly stamped. I bet yours also has a bit reddish finish on it? B stands for Belgium, as a batch of these rifles were at some point assembled with belgian made m91 barrels.
SA stands for "Suomen Armeija", meaning Army of Finland. That was and is stamped on all property owned by FDF.
VKT means "Valtion Kivääritehdas", or The State Rifle Factory, which along with Sako was the main supplier of rifle barrels.

 

[longhorngunman]

Yep, the barrel on mine has the purplish tint to it. I read on www.mosin-nagant.net that some are like this. Mine just has the SA, B stamp, D stamp, serial number and the year. Haven't taken the stock off yet to see what year the reciever actually is. I know some of these rifles can be very old.

 

[DMK]

Welcome to THR Luomu! I'll bet you Finns are as proud of the M39 as we are of our M1 Garand. And rightfully so! I also have a plumb Belgian barreled M39, but my real favorite is a 1942 Sk.Y Civil Guard rifle made by Sako (S inside a gear logo). All are very accurate, and I agree that the sights are very nice for rifles of that era. I even got to try some Lapua match ammo in them once. They seemed to like the food from home.

My third M39 is a 1970 with no other markings. These are referred to over here as "Sneaks" sometimes and the story goes that these were assembled from parts as sniper or marksmanship training rifles. Do you know anything about these?

 

[Cosmoline]

I also use 1930's era tables, that tell me how much each notch in the rear sight will move point of impact at 150m or 300m range. The sights are so carefully manufactured, that they are really wasted on regular infantryman's weapon. But for competition, they beat the swede's sights hands down.

Loumu, my friend. How much Alaska salmon would I need to send you to get you to post said "1930's era tables"?

 

[swingset]

The K-31s are accurate, just not quite as good as a swede 96.

Not my experience. All things equal, they both shoot equally well and I've owned enough of both to have a good comparative sample and I have a machine rest at my disposal which helps to remove moron behind the trigger.

Swedes don't outshoot K-31's, only certain Sweded outshoot certain K-31's, and vice versa.

 

[mindpilot]

yep

I agree with you on that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Luomu]

Yep, the barrel on mine has the purplish tint to it. I read on www.mosin-nagant.net that some are like this. Mine just has the SA, B stamp, D stamp, serial number and the year. Haven't taken the stock off yet to see what year the reciever actually is. I know some of these rifles can be very old.

Yep, when you take the stock off, it is useful to pay attention to the way the shims are placed between the action and stock. I have a feeling that someone who knew his business, has placed them there. At least my gun was bedded right at the government weapons depot, from where I bought it.

Now, I'm by no means an authority on the subject, but to the best of my knowledge all the receivers are of Imperial Russian or Soviet origin. My receiver and bolt have several serial numbers, some (but not all) of which have been stamped over. The gun was built around late 1960's, from available parts, and has been sitting inside armory ever since. Now it has about 600 rounds through it. I'm using it at the reservists' competitions, where only old military rifles are allowed.

 

[Luomu]

Loumu, my friend. How much Alaska salmon would I need to send you to get you to post said "1930's era tables"?

Heh,
unfortunately I do not have easy access to a scanner right now, otherwise I could do that easily enough. Typing the data manually feels too much like work.. But if a scanner presents itself, that could be done. When shifting the point of impact, there's exact number of millimetres given for each notch at the ranges of 50m, 100m, 150m and 300m.

A shooter can also make himself a disk-like apparatus, that can be used for the same purpose. Again, I have help from 1930's.. The system utilises the first group of sighting shots. After point of impact has been determined, the disk is used to determine the proper sight notch for the following competition rounds. In theory (and often in practise as well) only one group of sighters needs (or is allowed) to be shot. We are assuming here that a good enough prone position is used, and wind, lighting etc. remains relatively same.

 

[Luomu]

Welcome to THR Luomu! I'll bet you Finns are as proud of the M39 as we are of our M1 Garand. And rightfully so! I also have a plumb Belgian barreled M39, but my real favorite is a 1942 Sk.Y Civil Guard rifle made by Sako (S inside a gear logo). All are very accurate, and I agree that the sights are very nice for rifles of that era. I even got to try some Lapua match ammo in them once. They seemed to like the food from home.

My third M39 is a 1970 with no other markings. These are referred to over here as "Sneaks" sometimes and the story goes that these were assembled from parts as sniper or marksmanship training rifles. Do you know anything about these?

Hi, DMK.
I think we are proud enough, heh. However, were it not for complete lack of funds after the independence war of 1918, I do believe us Finns would have gone for the 7x57 mauser -98 as our service rifle. But the army had no money, and it had 250 000 war booty m91 rifles in the inventory. So there you go..
M39 and especially m28-30 are accurate, but mauser is, of course, the better action. I personally dislike the lack of gas porting in m91 action. Having once had a ruptured case which blew straight back to my face, I do appreciate the mauser system. Allways use eye protection with m91.

I have no knowledge of sniper m39's, other than that there have been some. I've seen pictures of various scope sighted m39's. But sadly, as in most peace time armies, snipercraft has been somewhat neglected in post war FDF.

 

[Cacique500]

I'm glad the M39's are loosing...that means' they'll be more available for me to purchase

I have 7 of 'em and each and every one is a work of art.

Anybody with an unissued Sako or SKY with a pretty stock that wants to sell it...please let me know!

 

[Cosmoline]

Heh,
unfortunately I do not have easy access to a scanner right now, otherwise I could do that easily enough. Typing the data manually feels too much like work.. But if a scanner presents itself, that could be done. When shifting the point of impact, there's exact number of millimetres given for each notch at the ranges of 50m, 100m, 150m and 300m.

A shooter can also make himself a disk-like apparatus, that can be used for the same purpose. Again, I have help from 1930's.. The system utilises the first group of sighting shots. After point of impact has been determined, the disk is used to determine the proper sight notch for the following competition rounds. In theory (and often in practise as well) only one group of sighters needs (or is allowed) to be shot. We are assuming here that a good enough prone position is used, and wind, lighting etc. remains relatively same.

Don't think of it as work... think of it as a holy thing. It's your mission. For Finland and the Mosin-Nagant.

Do you know what ball ammo was considered standard for the M-39 to calibrate it on your tables?

 

[Luomu]

Do you know what ball ammo was considered standard for the M-39 to calibrate it on your tables?

Well,
rear sight range scale is intended for Lapua's 13g/200grs D166 FMJBT -bullet, muzzle velocity circa 720m/s, if memory serves. D166 bullet is again in production at Lapua. FDF and Civil Guard have used other bullets as well, though. Front sights were available (and sometimes still can be found) in differing heights, for calibration.
Before WWII, Civil Guard match shooters could also get bullets in several diameters (7,83mm, 7,84mm, 7,85mm etc.etc.) to get the best out of their rifles.
I was told that D166 was originally developed as a machine gun bullet for long distance indirect fire.
Funny thing about these tables; at least at 100 meters the last time I tried, with my own totally different load (7,90mm 123grs FMJ at around 880m/s), the shift in point-of-impact was spot on?

 

[Luomu]

Loumu, my friend. How much Alaska salmon would I need to send you to get you to post said "1930's era tables"?

Cosmoline,
err, there might be a chance for me to scan the data during christmas season. However, don't hold your breath while waiting..

Or, I quess I could simply photocopy the page, and just mail it to you, if you wish?

 

[DMK]

were it not for complete lack of funds after the independence war of 1918, I do believe us Finns would have gone for the 7x57 mauser -98 as our service rifle. But the army had no money, and it had 250 000 war booty m91 rifles in the inventory. So there you go..
M39 and especially m28-30 are accurate, but mauser is, of course, the better action.

Seeing how well the Finnish arsenals built the M28-30 and M39 on the crude Mosin-Nagant actions, I would love to have seen what they would have built on the K98 action! You're right, that would have been a very nice rifle indeed. And still would shoot cheap ammo for us.

 

[DMK]

I'm glad the M39's are loosing...that means' they'll be more available for me to purchase

I have 7 of 'em and each and every one is a work of art.

Anybody with an unissued Sako or SKY with a pretty stock that wants to sell it...please let me know!

You mean one of these?

You can still get a Sako here: http://www.gunsnammo.com/

Antique receivers, don't even need a C&R.

 

[Cacique500]

You mean one of these?

Ow that hurts...yes, JUST LIKE the top one

I've been watching WGA but haven't seen the 'right one' yet...like the one in the top of your picture...

 

[Gewehr98]

I voted based on my own experiences.

My M-96 Swedish Mauser is unnervingly accurate. My 1911 S-R is close, but not quite there yet. That doesn't mean it's any less accurate, just that I haven't developed the handload that'll bring it in tight like the Swede. But they do look good next to each other...

 

[DMK]

Ow that hurts...yes, JUST LIKE the top one

I've been watching WGA but haven't seen the 'right one' yet...like the one in the top of your picture...

Yea, that's the Sako Sk.Y. I got it by watching WGA's list for a long while too.

 

[DMK]

. But they do look good next to each other...

That they do! Wow, I never realized just how long the 1911 was. That's got to be the full length 1911, not the carbine right?

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmoline,
err, there might be a chance for me to scan the data during christmas season. However, don't hold your breath while waiting..

Or, I quess I could simply photocopy the page, and just mail it to you, if you wish?

Loumu, I'm checking with the big Mosin-Nagant forum over at Tuco's site (http://www.mosinnagant.net/) to see if any of those guys already have the chart you reference. I've never heard of it, but I'm only a Jr. Grade Mosin collector. Feel free to post over there as well.

Edit--is this the chart you're talking about?

 

[Gewehr98]

Yup.

That's got to be the full length 1911, not the carbine right?

Full-length infantry rifle, papa to the K31 everybody's getting jiggly over these days.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

I've got a K-31, an M-38, and a couple M39's (a "B" Barrel with a nice reddish tint like some of the other forum members and a VKT built on a French Chatellerault reciever).

However, I didn't vote in the poll, since I don't think I can shoot well enough say which one is the best shooting. About 1.5 MOA is the best I can do with regularity, and all four of those rifles can do it. Once, (and only once) I was able to get a five-shot group under 1.25 MOA with the VKT so I guess I would say "M39", but that doesn't seem very scientific to me. . .

As an aside, I really like all three, but my favorite is the M39. You get great accuracy and] a rich, battle-proven history .

If you are really curious as to which one is most accurate, just buy all three ! Have fun shooting!

 

[Cosmoline]

If you put most M-39's in a properly inletted sporter stock the problems of barrel interference are solved, and the accuracy improves quite a bit. I don't know why the Finnish military opted against using the excellent barrel sleeve system of the 28/30's.