Most accurate milsurp of the three kings

[longhorngunman]

Of the three milsurps generally regarded as the most accurate on a rifle to rifle basis, with a high enough production for most budgets to acquire : Swiss K31, or the Finnish M39, or the Swedish Mauser 38/96? Please forgive me Springfield 1903 fans, but most of the real accurate ones usually had considerable work done to them. Let's say basic rifle with no accurizing done besides how it came out of the factory. Of course it's not fair to compare a Swiss k31 using GP11 match ammo with a M39 using cheap commie surplus ammo. Anybody shot all three using their best handloads and what were the results? BTW I have a few k31's and love them, just got a m39, I'd like to have a Swedish Mauser but those in good condition are fetching upwards of $400 in my area , and the M39's are starting to get pricey. I believe all can do 1 MOA but can any of them consistently do better than even that?

 

[Cosmoline]

I suppose it depends. For out-of-the-box accuracy, the K-31's win hands down. Every one I've owned has shot 1 1/2 to MOA with GP-11. They're all remarkably consistent. That said, there are tricked out Swedes that will shoot well *within* MOA. The M-39's vary widely. All are good shooters, but will shoot very different groups with different ammo. I've had Sakos from mid-Continuation War that shoot great with heavy Russian but terrible with lighter Czech, and I've had "sneaks" that hate heavy Russian and prefer .308 bullets. The M-39's are not considered the best Finns--that honor goes to the much more difficult to find 28's and even more the 28/30's made by the Civil Guard. That's what Simho Hayha used. They have special barrel sleeves, expertly placed shims and a hard black substance of unknown material that seems to have been used to bed the receivers. The 39's have no sleeve, and that massive birchwood stock of theirs does indeed interfere with the barrel on many rifles no matter how many shims are used to lift the barrel up.

I've actually found that the late-model Tikka 91/30's shoot better than most M-39's, I suspect because their stocks are about five times lighter out front and don't mess with the barrel as much.

 

[swingset]

K-31, hands down.

The others are great, accurate rifles, but consistently over the long run of manufacture the Schmidt Rubin was always accurate, was always built with precision and care, and never varied.

I would wager, if it were possible, that if you took 100 rifles from each from their earliest manufacture to the last ones, new and unissued, and fed them good handloads the K-31 would be the most consistent, and the most accurate of the 3.

I base this on the very good design and bed of the K-31 stock, the consistency of Swiss gun making, and the small number of factories who produced them.

 

[jefnvk]

I can shoot my Swede and Swiss about the same, never tried a Finn so I won't comment. I think the average user is going to have a hard time telling a difference in the two. Both are excellent rifles, which their owners took immaculate care of.

Personally, I like the Swede better.

 

[762X39]

I dont have any experience with the Swiss or Finn rifle but I do have a lot of shooting time in on my 38. I regularly engage targets at 300 and 400 yards with it as it came from the factory. I use standard fmj ammo and can consistently hit a mover at 300 and into the black at 400. This is with the iron sights. As a result, I can't be bothered to look for a precision high priced rifle. Just my opinion but I love it.
I would like a Swiss rifle as well but I never see them at my local gun shop.

Regards

John H.

 

[GD]

I have all three firearms and all of them shoot better than I do (better than 1.5 MOA). I like the sights on the M39 and K31 better than the Swede M96. If it weren't for the ammo, my favorite would probably be the K31. Ammo considerations though make the M39 my favorite rifle. With Czech silvertip ammo, I can shoot 100 rounds in a session for under $10. Can't beat that!

 

[Browns Fan]

What is the average cost for a box of ammo for the K-31, and how available is it? What is the recoil like?

 

[enfield]

Go ahead and get the Swede -- the price is only going to go up and they aren't making them anymore.

 

[jefnvk]

What is the average cost for a box of ammo for the K-31, and how available is it? What is the recoil like?

It isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. I got 70 rounds from Midway for $25.

Considering it is non-corrosive, match-quality ammo, I don't think the price is way out of line. Continued supply isn't a problem anymore, either, as Wolf is now producing ammo at about the same cost.

 

[ocabj]

Like they said in the movie Heartbreak Ridge, "Swede! Swede! Swede! Swede!"

 

[Essex County]

I voted K31, but probably my Swede would be so close...........Essex

 

[brentwal]

K31, but the Swede is a very close 2nd.

 

[JohnKSa]

That said, there are tricked out Swedes that will shoot well *within* MOA.

I've only shot 3 Swedes. They were absolutely NOT tricked out--they were in straight issue condition. All of them would shoot sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Two of them with Swedish surplus ammo, the other with handloads.

Just my opinion, but I think the people voting K31 don't have much experience with Swedes...

 

[kennedy]

swede

 

[swingset]

I've only shot 3 Swedes. They were absolutely NOT tricked out--they were in straight issue condition. All of them would shoot sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Two of them with Swedish surplus ammo, the other with handloads.

Just my opinion, but I think the people voting K31 don't have much experience with Swedes...

Not true, owned many Swedes. And, in doing so, I have long guns and carbines that will shoot as well or better than the K-31, and ones that shoot like crap.

That's the whole point. Consistently, over the whole run of production which gun is the most accurate, consistently.

The K-31 is, without doubt. Try, just try, to find a post by someone in the last 5 years where they grumbled about how bad their K-31 shot. I can find, heck, I've MADE posts where I bemoaned my M38's shotgun patterns, even with good ammo.

BTW, 3-shot groups say nothing about the accuracy of a gun....especially a high power one bedded to it's sight in wood. When that wood heats up, it will string if it's not bedded properly.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I don't know about the others, but I have a beautiful Swedish Mauser 96, and it is a tack driver. With mil surplus ammo and standard sights, it hovers just over an inch and a half at 100 yards. Much more accurate than any of my Mausers, SMLEs or Springfields. Although, I do have to say that I used to have a Finnish M39, and it shot with just about the same level of accuracy. Only problem, as I could recall, was that you could not adjust the sights without a special tool, and since I didn't have the tool and no one knew where to get one, I sold it for about $100. It got nice tight groups, though. Wish I had kept it.

 

[JohnKSa]

I've MADE posts where I bemoaned my M38's shotgun patterns, even with good ammo.

So have I. My M38 shoots Remington factory ammo into 12" patterns at 100 yards. With the surplus ammo it will do 3/4" groups. This may be one issue you're seeing given that there is a relatively large number of ammo suppliers for the 6.5x55 compared to the swiss round.

ones that shoot like crap

Are you sure that you're not just having accuracy issues with Swedes that have been shot to death? I've never heard of anyone complaining about accuracy with Swede having a bore that's anything approaching decent. Any rifle's groups will open up if the bore is worn out.

When I hear people lauding the K31's accuracy and saying it's 1.5moa and then turning around and saying that's better than the Swedes (which in my experience shoot better than MOA with ammo they like), it seems like a significant disconnect...

 

[swingset]

So have I. My M38 shoots Remington factory ammo into 12" patterns at 100 yards. With the surplus ammo it will do 3/4" groups. This may be one issue you're seeing given that there is a relatively large number of ammo suppliers for the 6.5x55 compared to the swiss round.Are you sure that you're not just having accuracy issues with Swedes that have been shot to death? I've never heard of anyone complaining about accuracy with Swede having a bore that's anything approaching decent. Any rifle's groups will open up if the bore is worn out.

I have a '96 that's got a beautiful bore, but even with carefully worked handloads (and I do know a thing or two about handloading), the best I can wring out of it is 4" groups at 100 yards (5 shotters). Bedding looks good, bore is tight and the crown is immaculate. It just doesn't shoot well. I have an M38 that shoots .75" groups, with similar handloads. There ya go, and I'm not alone on that. My buddy is a Swede collector, and he has run across the odd gun that just doesn't shoot well, tho it's not the norm obviously. Most of his are very accurate. I'm not slandering the gun, it's a marvelous weapon but I think they let some bad ones out of the barn now and then and that's completely typical of 98% of the world's military arms makers. I think, however, the K-31 was different, and unique.

When I hear people lauding the K31's accuracy and saying it's 1.5moa and then turning around and saying that's better than the Swedes (which in my experience shoot better than MOA with ammo they like), it seems like a significant disconnect...

1.5 MOA with a K-31 is typical, but that's with GP-11 which is good ammo but not what I'd consider true "match" ammunition. It's just really really good milsurp.

I have 2 K-31's, 1 1911 short and 1 1911 long rifle. All will shoot sub-MOA 5 shot groups with handloads. Everyone. I saw a guy at a vintage bolt match make a 10 shot group at 600 yards with a diopter-equipped K-31 that you could cover with a coffee mug. Needless to say, he cleaned my and everyone else's clock that day.

 

[JohnKSa]

he has run across the odd gun that just doesn't shoot well

Ok, that's a bit surprising to me, but, as you say 100% effective QA is pretty tough... But are you really saying that doesn't ever happen with the K31 rifles?

 

[swingset]

Ok, that's a bit surprising to me, but, as you say 100% effective QA is pretty tough... But are you really saying that doesn't ever happen with the K31 rifles?

Oh, I'm sure that the Swiss have turned out a bad gun here or there. But, think about this for a second. One of the requirements for a soldier (citizen) was that they had to qualify with their gun, and that the gun itself had to pass periodic inspection which included accuracy on the range. If that gun "suddenly" was in disrepair or the bore was damaged, the SOLDIER had to pay for it. So, obviously a bad gun was rooted out right away if it left the factory, and the men issued their rifles took excellent care of them.

Secondly, the trials and inspection inside of the swiss armories is legendary, and tough. Guns that were otherwise perfect, but had machining marks where they shouldn't were rejected. Stocks with grain that reversed were pitched, and they didn't just test fire the guns. They machine-rested them and measured groups or they didn't pass.

And, lest we forget that Swiss craftsmanship is and always was the best in the world. Just look at the 11/31 bolts. They're practically tool steel, and the workmanship is just incredible for an issue gun. The bedding is ingenious, too. The saw-horse receiver and barrel fit is very repeatable. You can swap stocks on the K-31's with practically no loss in POI. Try that with a Swede or an Enfield, or an 03A3.

It's a recipe for outstanding milsurp guns, and explains why no one bought a K-31 recently that shoots 8" groups at 100 yards.

 

[longhorngunman]

Dangit! Swingset, quit talking about how good the K31 is. Makes me want to go ahead and order another of the 5-er rifle deals! Looks like the K31 is starting to pull away. Surprised the M39 isn't rated higher. Supposedly every rifle had to shoot atleast 1.5MOA or it wouldn't even be issued. Got mine for barely over a $100 which is a steal, and probably percentage wise the best gun deal I've made. Same condition rifle on the gunboards and at shows are easily going for double to triple what I paid. I would love to own a Swede also but not for $400! With my C&R I can buy 6 K31's for that price and though they might not have very pretty wood on them(I love the design of their recievers and bolts though) they will all be terrific shooters. I've never owned or inspected any others that didn't have atleast decently shiny bores and good rifling. Can't say that about some Mausers I've seen.

 

[Cosmoline]

The difficulties of making an accurate rifle are compounded when you have to make one that stays accurate with a honking great wooding stock and handguard. The barrel bands are constantly trying to squeeze the wood into the barrel, and of course as the barrel heats up accuracy falls apart. The Swiss seem to have solved this problem with their rifles through extremely careful stock construction. All the K-31's I've seen have floating barrels and bands that grip wood to wood--NOT wood to metal. The Swedes are cursed with mauser stocks that offer no such guarantee. Some are free and clear of the wood--others are not. Same with most of the Mosins.

 

[DMK]

Surprised the M39 isn't rated higher. Supposedly every rifle had to shoot atleast 1.5MOA or it wouldn't even be issued. Got mine for barely over a $100 which is a steal, and probably percentage wise the best gun deal I've made.

I think the biggest problem with the M39 is the lack of match quality ammo unless you handload your 54R. Really accurate commercial 54R is pretty expensive (and I'm not talking Barnual, Wolf or S&B which is no more accurate than good surplus). I bought a box of Black Hills 54R once for like $18 and sure it shot tiny groups, but even if I could find some more, it's hard to justify when there's plenty of pretty good surplus for literally pennies per round that will do 2MOA or slightly better.

And concerning the wood touching the barrels, with M39s that's really easy to fix with some 100 grit sandpaper wrapped around a dowel or deep socket. It usually only touches in a few spots and right near the muzzle. Loosen up those barrel bands and use locktite on the screws. The K31s do have very generous channels in the stocks though.

 

[No_Brakes23]

I must confess to never having tried the Swede. I own 2 M39s and they are not too bad.

But I have watched people shoot sub-MOA over irons, (The funky target sights) with the K31.

 

[Luomu]

Hi all,
this is my 1st post here. Voted for m39. I've never handled the swiss gun, though, they are not too common where I live.
But I've got a used m96 and an unissued m39. I believe they are quite comparable in accuracy, both will shoot under 1MOA (allthough this is extremely difficult to prove on demand, since I shoot w/open sights..). M39 is probably more ammo sensitive, the swede will shoot everything nicely.

One needs to load thicker than .308 bullets into those 53R cases, around 7,90mm diameter really helps matters. In a m28-30, 7,85mm bullets can be succesfully used. M39 has a larger groove diameter than m28-30, also the forcing cone is larger and deeper.
But where the m39 really shines is the sights. By 1930's standards, the sights are rather nice for 300m military match shooting. In the front sight, one mark moves point of impact exactly 5cm at 300m. I also use 1930's era tables, that tell me how much each notch in the rear sight will move point of impact at 150m or 300m range. The sights are so carefully manufactured, that they are really wasted on regular infantryman's weapon. But for competition, they beat the swede's sights hands down.