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Most Inexpensive and Efficient way to Obtain Firearms Training?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by 4Freedom, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. mudriver

    mudriver Member

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    4Freedom, I'm going to give you some different advice.

    There are lots of martial arts types (not just hand to hand) from everything to IDPA, IPSC, 2 gun, long range shooting, and many others. You should find something you enjoy doing and have fun training in that. Military training is fun 10% of the time and BS the rest. Find something that is fun 90% of the time and just do that. What you find fun you will learn to do very well, and the rest you'll just be wasting your time.

    Also - unless you like hand to hand combat training, don't train in it. It's very hard to learn to be proficient and not exactly practical (a gun will always win).

    BTW - My perspective might be different. I have plenty of military experience (enough to be considered an expert in my time), 22 years of martial arts and 26 years of firearms experience (I'm a gun guy).
     
  2. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    While I understand what you're saying, self-protection is more than just fighting off marauders. I strongly suggest folks study a martial art that involves groundwork. Knowing how to fit the ground without injury has saved me at least serious injury on several occasions, and might have even saved my life. My ex-wife was struck by a car and only mildly bruised, which she also credited to our training.
     
  3. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Millitary tactical training is not applicable. nor suitable for civillian self-defense situations.
     
  4. PacketStorm

    PacketStorm Member

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    Check out some of the classes from Suarez International.
    http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

    You might not find exactly the course you are looking for in one session, but putting a few of these together would still be cheaper than what your original post is showing. I would suggest the Close Range Gunfighting and the Kalishnikov series. There is a class they run every once in a while called the High Risk Operator class. You will learn small team tactics and is about as close as you can get to military training as a civi.
    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=51421&highlight=Civilian+Fighter
     
  5. mudriver

    mudriver Member

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    Qoute "While I understand what you're saying, self-protection is more than just fighting off marauders. I strongly suggest folks study a martial art that involves groundwork. Knowing how to fit the ground without injury has saved me at least serious injury on several occasions, and might have even saved my life."

    I agree completely with this. I run a small school and my whole family has greatly enjoyed martial arts for many years. However, 4Freedom is looking for something more practical defense oriented and getting bang for the buck. In my experience its a lot harder to become proficient with hand to hand vs. with firearms (thus nullifying the bang for the buck).

    Now if someone enjoys this kind of training (like we do!) then I say go for it!
     
  6. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    The advice I am getting here is golden, sobering and very helpful. I know a few jokers here have made some wise cracks, guess the word commando was in bad taste :rolleyes: . ANyhow, I am thanking people for contributing and going over every post even the ones I don't respond to.. The Suarez International site looks pretty cool , have to review it more. I'm sure its beyond my means and skill level now, but I will put it on the backburner for the future.

    Oh yeah, i think martial arts are very essential in urban environments. I think seeing that we have to play nice in urban environments, and as a result have very close encounters with people who may pull weapons on us, martial arts may even prove more effective than guns in some of these situations. I had one instance in the city at night, when this afro american guy was hanging out by my car in a dark alley looking inside, most likely to break in. I was in a shady side of town. Well, he saw me coming out of store and walkign to my car. I had thought he would pull a gun on me and ask for the keys, so I boldly walked up to him and acted friendly as my conscious told me, that being cowardly would invite a robbery. I was unarmed and without martial art skills, despite being same size of the guy. He looked at me and my very confident and friendly look and patted me on shoulder saying he isn't going to steal my car, not to worry and he walked off, nervously, but happily. I smiled back and told him, I would have never thought that.

    But, inside my brain I was very nervous and just ready for anything that would happen, ready to hand him the keys if needed. In this instance, I knew martial arts would have been my best weapon. In a close face to face scenario like this, where guy just happily walks up to you, I cannot see a gun as being the ultimate battle winner. Lets say he draws first and I cannot get to my gun, I think good martial art skills can be a life saver. Martial arts are practical in a "friendly" society, where we cannot open carry and have to trust our enemy until they attack.
     
  7. JoeSlomo

    JoeSlomo Member

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    If you want to improve your proficiency with firearms it's hard to beat shooting USPSA and IDPA competitions.

    Both sports have THE best shooters in the country.

    Most of the "B" class, and ALL of the "A" class and above shooters are FAR more proficient with a handgun than ANY shooter I have seen with solely "military" training, and I'm a career "shooter" type military dude.

    Who do the "commando's" turn to for training? Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret, and other USPSA grandmaster classed shooters. While not everything applies in a "tactical" sense, there aren't too many better options to learn how to shoot FAST and ACCURATE than by those who are the fastest and most accurate.

    There are VERY few organizations in the military that are truly proficient with their weapons, and an even SLIMMER percentage is actually GOOD. Those that ARE good resource external trainers to subsidize organic experience within the unit.

    IMO, save your cash that you would blow on some course, and invest it into regular competition on a weekly basis. You will see vast improvement, and will meet many folks who will be willing to help you improve along the way.
     
  8. Kentucky Kernel

    Kentucky Kernel Member

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    Looks like I owe 4Freedom an apology for my skeptical post. Take care and be careful.

    KK
     
  9. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    It would appear the Alfro was bluffed. It seemed to me that you showed strength even though you were defenseless. Sometimes people have difficulty with that.

    I took a bit of Judo with a touch of Hap Ki do and a bit of alley learning as I went. To get in close with someone is to get tied up with that person and not able to continue your way. It becomes a problem.

    I remember my Sensei. He was OLD. But didnt look a day over 28. What effort this man experienced was ho-hum as pouring a cup of coffee while I am blown out and on the mat wondering what sort of mack truck ran me over. I only had him for a brief time, but it was enough to tear up any self delusions due to oats and ... youth.

    Mat is much better than concrete or belgian brick I say. I learned that someimes it's easier to defuse a potential fight..,. like a wife that had a button pushed and is beginning to steam.

    It is my opinion also that you need to be able to meet someone, be friendly with that dirtbag and as soon as dirtbag turns his back to you, take his lights out with the barstool. There are other variations written in different ways to this rule. But it's better than having to go three or four rounds sustaining damage or injury that may or maynot put you out of work or even put you into a nursing home.

    Good luck with whatever courses you take. You will meet some good people and perhaps someday you will never have to use it for real.

    I enjoy watching a good fight (Usually some USMC) done within rules from time to time, but am too old and slow to be worth a damn now. So. Heh.

    Everyone has a day in the sun.
     
  10. cipher

    cipher Member

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    Something similar happened to me leaving the airport in an African country. They snatched the driver out the car and softened him up with their rifle butts. We actually were pulled over 4 times; the second time, my kid brother asked: "Is that gun real?" So they scratched him behind the ears and let us go. You actually can't drive through most West African nations for long without giving out $20 bribes, it's sad. Especially not if your car isn't crap.

    As far as the training, I would consider tactical shooting games. Battlefield is a good one. I'm sure most people will find it hilarious, but if you find good people you'll learn a lot about squad movement pretty quickly. Off course, if you wet yourself in an actual scenario that's that. I'd be interested to know what the army does to prepare new recruits for real combat, and if all of them just freak the first time. You'll also need to be in good physical shape on top of it, but at least it's free. And easy. IDPA and some 3 gun matches look like they'd help as well, though I've never attended any. Someone said something about making a shoothouse; I don't know how feasible that is but can you find open land where you can set up a simple training grounds? I don't think you'd need instruction to learn a quick draw and proper stances, even though it might be faster.

    Private instruction seems silly to me. Just watching videos like this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aq2ilrnxss

    make me think that a lot of the budding security business is about selling an image. Hell, the clients won't know the difference. These guys look like they have little idea what they're doing. The rigid, textbook style of combat I see in CQB training schools seems to be classroom oriented as well.

    Also, a martial art school that does a lot of sparring is a must for coordination. I think that's why people practicing "tactical" shooting look so silly. ITF taekwondo would be my suggestion; it's hard to find a kung-fu school that's practical.


    EDIT: I looked at the Israeli Schools and they look much better. I see what you mean by commando, and I don't think the military would do you much good at any rate. That's paramilitary combat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
  11. crazy-mp

    crazy-mp Member

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    +1

    If you want to be a Commando, join the military and do the special forces training, don’t expect to become a cut rate Commando from the back pages of soldier of fortune magazine, or from watching war movies. There is no training you can pay for and do in less than 2 years that will even come close to SF training. Like some of the earlier people stated, it is a way of life not a hobby, or an interest, they eat, sleep, and train for whatever situation they may encounter.

    Or you could just look for a local Militia, according to the government everybody that owns a gun and didn’t vote for President Obama is apart of the new Militia movement.
     
  12. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm afraid you don't even have a clue.

    If you are between 17 and 42 I can help you lean firsthand.

    Just how would you know if it's easy or not?

    That's a great frame of reference....:rolleyes:

    And how did you learn?

    What CQB schools have you attended. What is your personal experience with close quarters battle? How many dynamic entries have you made?

    And what are your credentials to give such expert advice? PM me with them if you are too security conscious to post them on an open forum.
     
  13. cipher

    cipher Member

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    I'm sure you never tried it. DARPA seems to think VR training is useful, they've been cooking up programs for some time now. There's alot of things you can't learn shooting pop-up targets in a shoothouse.

    Or you can be constructive and give some examples.


    PC games are easy, not mliltary drills.

    I watched an IDPA match in person and was disappointed. All you do is shoot your pistol different ways. I figured I could get the same practice without coughing up money for entry fees.

    A work in progress, watching Todd Jarret and all the other guys on the internet was enough of a starting point for me to improvise my own ways. Technicaly instruction, but it was free.

    None, I've only watched videos. But I've been doing martial arts for long enough to know when someone's body is too stiff or when they're lacking actual fighting experience. Dynamic entries? Thousands, virtually, at least. Hands on experience is essential, but there's a lot you can learn mentally. Cover vs. concealment, where the enemies likely to be during an entry and which target to prioritize, are examples. How many did you do in the military? No sarcasm, I'm curious. I thought that was more of a paramilitary thing, but with warfare changing, maybe I'm wrong. How much practice will you get clearing rooms in Iraq? I was under the impression that the situations where you meet resistance in that way were limited in any given tour. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm a taekwondo student and instructor. People always come to us with textbook kicks they practiced in sterile environments against pads and hanging bags. Take them in a sparring situation and they get eaten alive by guys with inferior technique, but more fluidity.

    Just throwing a suggestion out there. I think virtual combat can a lot of good. I'm willing to bet that in 20 years, it'll be a standard addition to training regiments. The military's been long since working with the gaming industry to come up with training software for soldiers. I'm hardly a commando, and not trying to be.
     
  14. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    People always come to us with textbook kicks they practiced in sterile environments against pads and hanging bags. Take them in a sparring situation and they get eaten alive

    OK, so which is it- either exclusive virtual training ("sterile environment") works, or it doesn't ("eaten alive")? Which is it?

    It's been almost a decade since I've been around a Tier One training environment, but last I knew, no one was depending on video games for training. They're still blowing down doors and shooting thousands of rounds live fire and Simunitions per student in training.

    And when they get overseas, they're putting that training to work, too. Granted there are still a very high proportion of cooks and clerks in the US military, but the long tabbers are still very busy. And so are a good many conventional units- there's no shortage of up close and personal work being done.

    There may indeed come a time when it is in broader use, but for the time being virtual training doesn't intrude a whole lot into the real world.

    And as a reminder, we have rules here in S&T that guide us away from fantasy based scenarios. There is no real effort, work, sweat, fear, actual weapon manipulation etc. in a videogame. There is no teamwork in a videogame. Dr. Pain is not present in a videogame. There is no Murphy in a videogame.

    In short, there is insufficient reality present in videogames for anyone to consider them as actual serious realistic training for the purposes we are discussing here.

    lpl
     
  15. Hungry Seagull

    Hungry Seagull member

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    I tried a truck driving video game once or twice. It was ok. Not great but ok.

    My problem is Ive driven the real things so much that when the video game screen leans a certain angle looking out of the windshield I hae processes going in my mind's eye what is going on with each of my 18 wheels and weight situation.

    I quickly found that game ignores all of that.

    I think truck video game plays me. Not the other way round.

    No thanks. If you want to truck, do it dont play video game and think you truck.

    But it was not bad for a box with software and a steering wheel.
     
  16. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    You shouldn't be so quick to guess at someone's experience. I have used every simulator the Army fielded from 1974 through 2003. I am certified to instruct on some of them. 99% of what DARPA plays with never makes it to the field and none of the modified video games they have come up with is a satisfactory training event for dismounted ground combat. The conduct of fire trainers for the M1s and M2s are comparable to flight simulators pilots use and have their place, but they are not a replacement for firing the gunnery tables. Dismounted ground combat does not lend itself to a realistic simulation in the two dimensional world of a video game. There are too many variables that you just cannot write into code. If you could write it into code, it would require a massive amount of computing power to run it.

    There is a lot more to training for CQB then running through the shoot house. There are probably 100 or more individual tasks that each person must master before they are ready to start on collective training. Ever hear the terms crawl-walk-run? That is exactly how training works. It takes a multitude of different training events, both individual and collective before proficiency is attained. There is no one thing you have to do and one training event. There are many.

    PC games are just that; games. They are not training for anything but playing the game.

    Where are you going to get the learning that comes from interacting with the other competitors?

    Did you actually practice under the watchful eye of Todd Jarret on the internet? Of course not. So you have only your own interpretation of what you saw in a two dimensional representation to go from. How do you know it's right? One of the things you get from training with an instructor is that the instructor will be able to spot little things in your technique that you can improve on and help you improve.

    Remember crawl=walk-run. Something you should know and understand from your martial arts background. Did you move smoothly and quickly the first time through?

    Then you haven't done any. Not even in a basic training environment where the walls are marked off with engineer tape on the gorund and walking through.

    What you learned was what the software designers thought was cover v. concealment and where the software designers thought that enemies were likely to hide and which targets the software designers thought should be prioritized. You learned a game, not reality.

    No live entries in the military, hundreds in training and dozens of real entries as a member of a police tactical unit.

    Quite a bit actually. My son's experience in Iraq as an Infantryman with the 4th Infantry division was much closer to what I was doing as a member of a police tactical unit then my experience as an Army Infantryman. We didn't do MOUT that way in my day. We cleared rooms by killing everyone inside, things like firing through the door, cooking off a grenade and throwing it in and then shooting everyone upon entry were doctrine in my day. As the mission changed the military began adopting tactics that were developed by police tactical units and other military units with specialized missions. Almost a reverse of what happened when SWAT started in the early 1970s. In those days the police took from military doctrine and adapted it to meet their needs. As the military's mission changed, roles reversed and the military took from police doctrine.

    As with all things military it depends on when and where. 2003 - 2007 things were pretty hot in a lot of different areas. Since 2007 things have calmed down in many areas.

    And they have been failing at it. No good simulator exists now nor will it in the foreseeable future. That's why we still build training areas.
     
  17. DHJenkins

    DHJenkins Member

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    It would help to know why you want the training.

    It seem like a lot of people just want 'training' - no matter what it is or how inappropriate it is for their situation.

    I mean, there's no point working on team drills if you have no team back home.
     
  18. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    I will be offering a commando training course that will be held in my back yard. I have a small backyard so its a somewhat abbreviated class, but you will be trained in many commando techniques such as:

    Confidence course. The course will start in the neighbor's yard. Students must first scale the 6 foot high privacy fence, then proceeding to the air inflatable round water feature (the Disney characters on the water feature are urban camouflage), wading through the ankle deep water to the other side. The next step in the course is cleverly disguised as a child's swing set where the student will be required to show proficiency with both the swing and the slide.

    Firearms training. Our expert instructors will train you in both defensive and offensive shooting, as well as sniping on our 20 foot air gun range (remember its a small yard).

    Martial arts. Its a little unconventional, but catching the greased pig we set loose in the back yard is a pretty good analog to Brazilian ju jitsu.

    Jungle survival. No commando training would be complete without jungle survival training. Our expert instructors show you proven techniques for lighting a Weber up and cooking raw meat (the patties are frozen) completely outdoors. You will learn to setup an umbrella over the picnic table so you can eat out of the sun with survival rations which will consist of buns, cheese, and pickles. Water purification techniques will be taught using water from the Mckey Mouse kiddy pool on the confidence course. This is important because, well sometimes the damn dog pees in the pool.

    Close quarter combat. Our state of the art Dos 3.2 Doom close quarter combat simulator will train you in all the things you need to know about close quarter combat (if we can get it to work). We have been having a little trouble with it lately. Anyone know where we can get an CGA monitor?.
     
  19. MMCSRET

    MMCSRET Member

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    Try Blackwater; I understand they are always in need of action targets.
     
  20. PvtPyle

    PvtPyle Member

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    I am in awe at the inane responses by the uneducated here. You other mods and vets are much more patient than myself. Other wise this asshattery would have been binned a long time ago.

    If you do not have experience on real training simulators, maybe you should refrain from commenting on it. If you have not actually participated in a competition and worked with someone who can show you how to take positive lessons from the senario, maybe you should refrain from commenting about the benefits or disadvantages of doing them.

    If you have not been to any of the military schools, maybe you should stay in your lane and keep your uneducated comments to yourself and your gamer groupies. Nothing you do in the civilian world can fully prepare you for what you will experience in the military. Nothing in the military can fully prepare you for what you will experience down range.

    You want the training, you want the experience, get out there and do it. In order to be a rockstar you need to get out on the road. Until then you will just be another groupie wanna be. Playing first person shooter games is like playing guitar hero. It makes you feel like a rockstar, but you AREN'T.

    For those that are actually seeking real training instead of this fantasy adventure camp ****, keep at it. Take what you can from each class and practice sesson and make it your own and learn from it. Discard the rest. But either way stay at it! Kudos to you.
     
  21. 4Freedom

    4Freedom member

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    Think I may have to pass on the 3d games training for now. Games are fun, but I won't bet my backside on a game simulation to save me when I am knocking down a door and having to clear a room. Well, I will probably nevre have to do that in my life anyway, but I sure don't think a game is going to help me with this. There are so many variable factors. I really think paintball/airsoft will always be way better solution than any virtual reality game. Airsoft, was really the direction I was leaning in this regard.

    Back to reality. I suppose Kung Fu has one disadvantage in the fact its a combat martial art, designed to kill and cannot be used for sparring. But my brother always said since you can do sparrring in Tae Kwon Doe, is the reason why he doesn't do it. He says combat martial arts are designed to disable you opponent as quickly as possible. Also, they do have ways of practicing that can help with coordination and technique without killing the other opponent. What are other people's opinions about this? Would not the best martial art, be the one that teaches techniques to quickly kill or disable your opponent? Kung Fu focuses on pressure points. Maybe it would be good to mix Kung Fu with another art where you can spar, I don't know? I know in Kelari Peyattu they train with live weapons, but I am not ballsy enough to go to India and learn that art.

    As for as firearms training, I just cannot imagine anything would be better than training under an experienced instructor and with a team of other shooters. That is , if you have the luxury of having such people around. I think completing basic firearm courses and then graduating to more tactical courses, some that may rely on group related skills, would be best way to go. From reading various posts here, I think that is the best direction to take for now.
     
  22. Kentucky Kernel

    Kentucky Kernel Member

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    ilbob - you must be making a joke here---everyone knows that real training is with THAWED patties.

    KK
     
  23. B yond

    B yond Member

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    Get a job doing mall security.
     
  24. B yond

    B yond Member

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    New word!!!
    (try to learn something every day)
    :D
     
  25. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    You need to spar in my opinion. You just cannot learn some stuff without it, for instance, that fancy wristlock might not work against someone bigger. Yes, I've actually had stuff like that happen, some of what was taught in class just wouldn't work. I would also say that competition has shown the importance of sparring.


    If he had gotten out a gun, martial arts would not have been a good weapon. Even a gun might not work in that case. Only a bulletproof vest would work. I believe that martial arts are for situations where you can't use your gun and for retaining your gun.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
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