Mountain Lions and Guns

[BLB68]

It really doesn't take much to fend off a mountain lion, and the attacks are rarely fatal. All of this DOOOOOM stuff is silly.

It's an animal. It has no vested interest in getting hurt for food or territory. Most predators do not like prey that fights back.

I've read accounts of a lion being driven off by a woman with a Swiss Army knife, and a more recent one of a man using a medium-sized Spyderco folder to drive one off.

Here's an interesting report of a mountain lion attack. From the story linked:

The ranger, accompanied by his dog, was fishing around sunset at Crescent Beach. At some point, he noticed the canine being chased by a mountain lion. It then began to approach.

Off-leash dogs: Not the best thing in mountain lion or bear areas.

The ranger stood his ground, yelling and using his fishing pole and legs to strike and kick several times. It worked. The puma eventually ran off, leaving the man with torn jeans, but no injuries.

I hope he had a big bore fishing pole, because he didn't bring a firearm. Yet he survived.

The article also links to this chart, which is interesting.

That shows 14 attacks from 1986 to 2012. So the rate is about a half an attack a year. Only three of those were fatal. None of the attacks on children were fatal.

Can a mountain lion be dangerous? Yeah, of course. Is it some kind of super predator that metes out certain death to anything it attacks? Hardly. That's actually a more apt description of the common house cat. Be very glad that you aren't small enough to be on a house cat's menu.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Many of us agree that the chances of an attack are very slim. I think there are a few stories in this thread that are overly dramatic also so I agree with you BLB68.

However, noting that a predator can be dangerous and should be taken seriously is not a bad thing. And a statement like

It really doesn't take much to fend off a mountain lion

is not a real safe attitude, and I assume is not based on personal experience. I agree with you that lions don't really see us as a food source normally. I suspect that most interactions come from the cat being curious, or just dumb luck. However, if you read my OP the point I was making was that IF one decided to eat you, and ambush you, you would likely not see the attack coming. So why worry about it? However, practicing speed FOR ANY THREAT is a prudent practice, and in the case of mountain lions, should you should be confronted with one by accident, and not in a predation situation. Different scenarios when you think about it.

A close friend of mine was confronted by an aggressive cat. She waved her arms, yelled, threw sticks and rocks, and did all the stuff that they say you should due to scare a cat off. It kept approaching. My guess is that it was a female with young near by. My friend kept retreating backwards, but the cat kept coming. Then she realized she had bear spray, and she used it. THAT did the trick.

I have spoken to a wildlife biologist who works for the state I live in, and he has radio collared cats many times, tracked them, observed them from a distance in hunting behavior, and has been doing this for years. He witnessed a 90lb. female cat ambush, and successfully bring down a 500 lb cow elk. It clamped on to the windpipe, and suffocated if. Hard to run or fight with no air.

So, while the chances are extremely slim of a confrontation taking place, when a cat does decide to be aggressive, it must be taken seriously. The link you provided does show that attacks, and fatal attacks do take place from time to time. Very few, granted, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

The entire reason people carry guns is in preperation for an attack that will likely never happen. Treating lions dismissively is every bit as bad an idea as folks saying "I only carry when I think I'll need it." The point is that if you knew there could be trouble, don't go. If you expected an attack, why would you show up? If you thought you would need a gun, then you SHOULDN'T need a gun, because you shouldn't put yourself in that situation.

We CC guns because we DON'T expect an attack of any kind, but know that there is a small possibility.

Is it some kind of super predator that metes out certain death to anything it attacks? Hardly. That's actually a more apt description of the common house cat. Be very glad that you aren't small enough to be on a house cat's menu.

I don't think anyone is calling it a super predator or anything, but they did evolve and currently exist for a reason. They are successful. It seems odd to me that you note the killing power of a house cat, but then seem to downplay their relatives that are 10 to 20 times larger. ??????

Ok, now when I hear that they are varmints in places like Texas, and there is no bag limit, that is rediculous IMO.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

It's an animal. It has no vested interest in getting hurt for food or territory. Most predators do not like prey that fights back.

True most of the time, but if a predator is seriously starving -- in a prolonged drought, say -- it may take risks it would not otherwise take. A 200 lb. biped could be tempting when the predator, cougar or black bear, knows in its belly that the alternative is imminent death. I think this accounts for most black bear attacks.

In Canada a couple of years back, a female hiker was attacked, non-fatally, by two coyotes. I would bet they were very, very hungry.

Regarding the stats linked above -- interesting that the 3 fatalities were all adults, and no children. But keep in mind this was only California. In Rocky Mt. Nat. Park in Colorado about a decade ago, a cougar killed a 9-yr.-old boy who had hiked ahead of his family.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

But keep in mind this was only California.

Very true.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

Many very detailed accounts of confirmed cougar attacks in North America, 2001-2010 here: http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm

Only a few fatalities. Mostly, it seems apparent that cougars are deterred by fighting back, with fists, kicks, stones, whatever -- most of their prey not capable of this, and it surprises and repels them. Still, many people have been severely mauled about the head and face. One woman lost an eye.

One plucky 61-yr. old man managed to field his folding knife and slit the attacking cougar's throat, killing it.

Also, in cases where the attacking cougar was tracked and killed, there seems to a preponderance of malnourished females, probably desperate to feed themselves and their cubs.

Read these reports, and you're not likely to leave to your gun at home.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

From same site (cougarinfo.org):

Injury Attacks in the United States and Canada have been as follows:
1970's 17 total attacks found including 4 fatalities (2 injurred in one attack)
1980's 18 total attacks found including 2 fatalities
1990's 43 total attacks found including 8 fatalities
2000's 40 total 1confirmed attacks including 3 fatalities
2010's 10 attacks found as of 11/25/2012 including 0 fatalities

 

[JohnBiltz]

So more people have been struck by lightning. About what I expected. I've been snorkeling and had a shark show up. If you have been to the beach chances are you have been within 100 yards of one. Its nature, deal with it appropriately but there is no reason for panic about it.

 

[BLB68]

And a statement like is not a real safe attitude, and I assume is not based on personal experience.

And how much of these threads is based on personal experience?

I'll stand by the statement. I've read a large number of cases on cougar attacks, and they've been all relatively easy to drive off, compared to bears or domestic dogs, for example. Fatal attacks notwithstanding.

All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth over what caliber is suited for mountain lion defense is simply not warranted.

The first thing you need, as I say repeatedly in these wild animal attack threads, is a second person. Both of you need to have some means to fight back against an animal attack. This is because the attacks can happen suddenly, and you may well not be able to respond. Having someone else present not only gives you a person to apply forceful resistance, but may prevent an attack in the first place.

The second thing you need is something that you can get to, and put pain on the target, even if you're being mauled about the head and shoulders. That means you need to consider your carry position of your defensive tools. They need to be available when you're in a defensive ball. Appendix carry or chest carry are probably good ideas. You can't use it if you can't reach it and defend your head and neck at the same time. But how many threads does anyone (but me) bring up carry position?

The exact choice of what to carry comes in at third place.

 

[BLB68]

I don't think anyone is calling it a super predator or anything, but they did evolve and currently exist for a reason. They are successful. It seems odd to me that you note the killing power of a house cat, but then seem to downplay their relatives that are 10 to 20 times larger. ??????

House cats are more efficient predators, and they seemingly kill for pleasure (at least, not for food). That last part isn't true of most wild predators, who hunt to feed.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Seems to me that within the last year or so, I read in one of these forums that a member was attacked by a cougar, and punched it in the face driving it off. Not a guarantee by any means, but fight it any way you can, obviously.

House cats are more efficient predators, and they seemingly kill for pleasure (at least, not for food). That last part isn't true of most wild predators, who hunt to feed.

IINM, the leopard is the only big cat that will kill just for the fun of killing.

 

[bergmen]

An adult mountain lion is an animal that can attack and kill me and may very well do so. I don't go out in lightning storms nor get caught in one in an unsafe situation (they are rare in California).

I gave up salt water after a diver had his head and one arm ripped off by a very large great white in Timber Cove. The account of this incident by his diving partner about 20 feet away was bone chilling. Rare, indeed but that convinced me to stay land-bound. I'll let my buddies fire up the BBQ for the abalone and pay them with beer.

I carry defensive weapons in case I am confronted by a skank in a darkened parking lot (never have in my 63 years on this planet but still carry). Why in the world I would venture into mountain lion country not equally equipped is ridiculous.

I do not consider pepper (or bear) spray to be a good deterrent specifically because of the lack of control of the prevailing air currents. Spray that stuff upwind and there will be two victims choking. Bullets won't do that.

Dan

 

[JERRY]

"they" say there are no pumas in s.e. Arkansas, but I saw the hind end of one just after it growled or whatever they do.... I was in a deer stand with a 30-06 and was creeped out. I climbed down making as much noise as I could and got on my four-wheeler (quad for you NW guys) and go the freak outa there.

at the camp some guys asked why I came back so early and I told them what I thought I saw. they were kinda quite for a minute and stated that they've seen the tracks and heard it before at night...... but the DNR guys say they aren't around.

maybe an exotic pet that got loose... I don't know.

 

[GLOOB]

So I guess the real point is: No matter how fast you think you may be, we all need to practice speed draws with our sidearms...
Good luck everyone. Remember, practice ammo is expenssive right now, but it is cheap in comparison to your life.

Focusing on speed is the wrong idea. What matters is you carry the gun in a place you can reach it while a 70 pound cat is velcroed to your back, jaws clamped on the back of your neck. You might also wanna practice the logistics of shooting a watermelon strapped between your own shoulder blades... and I wouldn't recommend doing that in a hurry.

That's my philosophy. I would look at it more like a Houdini escape than a quick draw contest. You're locked up underwater. The important thing is that you have access to the key and can hopefully get it in the keyhole. Protect your face and neck, and try to work the lock.

 

[BLB68]

I do not consider pepper (or bear) spray to be a good deterrent specifically because of the lack of control of the prevailing air currents. Spray that stuff upwind and there will be two victims choking. Bullets won't do that.

Dan

First, it'd take a pretty stiff headwind to get the stuff in your face. Any good spray comes out with force.

Second, even if you do get hit, does it matter as long as you hit the cat? You're a lot more capable of dealing with the stuff mentally than a wild animal is.

Third, even if you only manage to hit yourself with the stuff (unlikely, but I guess it could happen with the right combination of factors), the resultant cloud will still irritate the animal, and it will probably break off.

IMO, spray + a lethal option for each member of your group is the best bet.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Did anyone suggest a Beretta Cougar?

 

[sixgunner455]

LOL, Sharps.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

That's the perfect solution -- spray first, with lethal backup. I carry Counterassault and a cat o' nine-tails -- one for each of the 9 lives.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Did anyone suggest a Beretta Cougar?

LOL! Nice man!

All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth over what caliber is suited for mountain lion defense is simply not warranted.

Agreed. Anything that will stop a human attacker is likely good enough to stop a cat. Not sure what wailing and gnashing you are refering to. This thread has seemed pretty reasonable.

Focusing on speed is the wrong idea.

I respectfully disagree GLOOB, wich is rare because I usually agree with your posts. I think speed is paramount in all scenarios regardless of the source of the attack. Carry position facilitates access, and contributes to speed, and is thus part of the speed equation. Carry position should always be considered before the gun is carried, for all situations, and like you, I do give it a lot of consideration. So I'm with you on that. A gun is useless if unreachable.

IINM, the leopard is the only big cat that will kill just for the fun of killing.

House cats are more efficient predators, and they seemingly kill for pleasure (at least, not for food). That last part isn't true of most wild predators, who hunt to feed.

I don't know about this. It seems to me that the instinct to hunt and kill is strong in all predators, regardless of size, and regardless of if they are well fed. Big cats will bury kills also and come back to them later. That's why they recommend you never run if you see a cat. If you run, they HAVE to chase you. They can't help it, possibly even if they just ate. Attaching "pleasure" to what is instinct for them, seems a touch unfair. Millions of years of evolution tells predators to run, chase, and kill. Any animal will kill to protect young, to feed if a predator, or to protect territory. It seems to me humans are the only animal that kills for pleasure. Whatever though, I guess this is JMO based on observations.

I guess any predator should be taken seriously

The first thing you need, as I say repeatedly in these wild animal attack threads, is a second person.

Ok now this I have to just flat out say is a silly statement. I agree that there is safety in numbers, especially in animal attack situations, and if you have that option, GREAT. However, my family is all either dead or several hundred miles away. I am not married and am single. My friends here are not big on hiking. So who exactlly am I supposed to go out to the woods with? Not to mention that my job necesitates that I work alone in the woods all the time, and at work I am not armed per the rules of my employer. Just because you have the luxury of companionship, don't assume everyone else in the world has the option. Because we don't.

Ok, I have wandered onto the topic of animal behavior, and off guns and SD.

Mountain lions are a predator. All predators should be taken seriously. Actually, based on my experience, all animals should be taken seriously. Your chances of being attacked by a lion are very slim it seems, but a gun if used properly, and carried in an accessable manner is a viable defense.

If a lion is already on top of you, fight back with whatever is at hand, and good luck.

Stay safe all.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Cats are curious and if you live in cougar country and you spend time outdoors you've probably been looked at / been close to cats many times without your knowledge. They simply aren't very aggressive and very rarely attempt to hunt humans.

Once I started hunting lions with some of the old pros I was shocked at how much cougar sign there was that I hadn't noticed before I was shown what to look for.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

According to the stats cited above, in all of North America it works out to:

About 3 cougar attacks annually, and a fatality every other year (.43 annually to be exact). Total attacks doubled in the decades of the '90 and '10s, over the '70s and '80s. Probably due to human population expansion and encroachment, and possibly more people engaged in outdoor activities.

So it's true that lightning kills and injures more people, and probably bathtub accidents as well. Nevertheless, if YOU are in the wrong place at the wrong time when lightning (or a cougar) strikes, all the statistics in the world will be of little comfort.

 

[silicosys4]

According to the stats cited above, in all of North America it works out to:

About 3 cougar attacks annually, and a fatality every other year (.43 annually to be exact). Total attacks doubled in the decades of the '90 and '10s, over the '70s and '80s. Probably due to human population expansion and encroachment, and possibly more people engaged in outdoor activities.

So it's true that lightning kills and injures more people, and probably bathtub accidents as well. Nevertheless, if YOU are in the wrong place at the wrong time when lightning (or a cougar) strikes, all the statistics in the world will be of little comfort.

A little clarification on that information would help, I cannot find any source that puts fatal cougar attacks as common as 1 every other year.
That might be from a small time frame, which might actually be a better reference than the last 100 years, given that unwelcome cougar/human interactions are on the rise as more and more cougar habitat is populated by humans.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

That was my math from the stats posted on http://www.cougarinfo.org. Scroll up to see my post above on this page.

 

[Robbins290]

+1 sharp dressed man. That was a good one. My hat goes off too you

 

[1goodshot]

I stop a Mt Lion from attacking my friend, it was charging him when I fired a shot in its direction. The thing turned and ran away and my buddy yells what are you shooting at? He had no idea the cat was there.

 

[krupparms]

A number of years ago while deer hunting, I stopped to take a break. Looking back over the area that I had just covered I noticed a MT.Lion on my back trail. I sent a round toward it. It took off & I watched it go at high speed over the hill. It was obviously trailing me! I am very careful when in any areas that have cats or bears ect. Anyone who doesn't take precautions in these areas is risking their lives & those that are with them! Carry somethint while in any place you might run into a predator! 2 or 4 legged! JMA.