Armsmaster270, what is that holster in post 70? I really like the looks of it. Is that a lever to release retention of some kind that I see near the trigger guard?
Much-Revised Defense Loadout
- Thread starter Safetyfirst
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@Safetyfirst:
As for the pistol choice, looks like a CZ clone, and CZs are decent guns. I'm another who hasn't heard of this particular maker. I'd suggest handling a few handguns, and shooting them if possible, including a CZ or clone of some type that matches the one you're looking at. Hand to gun fit is important IMO. While it's possible to shoot an ill-fitting handgun well, it's not a handicap you need to give yourself if you're still learning.
More on fit here: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/choosing-firearms/trying-on-a-handgun/
As for the BCM Jack model, I'm not seeing anything that justifies the expense, really. Their less expensive models will serve your purposes just fine, as will any other top tier manufacturer's. BTW, BCM has a notice on their site that they're sold out of guns, so there may be a longer wait for one than with other brands. You may want to look into a Colt.
As for the pistol choice, looks like a CZ clone, and CZs are decent guns. I'm another who hasn't heard of this particular maker. I'd suggest handling a few handguns, and shooting them if possible, including a CZ or clone of some type that matches the one you're looking at. Hand to gun fit is important IMO. While it's possible to shoot an ill-fitting handgun well, it's not a handicap you need to give yourself if you're still learning.
More on fit here: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/choosing-firearms/trying-on-a-handgun/
As for the BCM Jack model, I'm not seeing anything that justifies the expense, really. Their less expensive models will serve your purposes just fine, as will any other top tier manufacturer's. BTW, BCM has a notice on their site that they're sold out of guns, so there may be a longer wait for one than with other brands. You may want to look into a Colt.
I've seen lots of Colts in stock locally, even at Walmart. BCM's very hit and miss these days. Also, on the Sphinx, there are some pretty decent CZ clones being made right now in Turkey and imported by Tristar. Personally, I think I'd just have my money ready and wait for a used CZ to show up, but that's just me.
mr.trooper
Member
Safety First:
Please don't take this the wrong way - I don't think you need to BUY anything right now.
I took the liberty of reading the OPs for all of the threads you have started in your short time here, and It is apparent you are a gear head.
Let me be frank and say that I don't think you have much, if any, real experience or training.
I think you need to take the $3,000+ you are planning to spend on a single rifle, pistol, and pocket knife, and spend it instead on getting training.
Start by searching for one of your local NRA certified instructors. Many of them teach classes at the local level for very reasonable fees. I started years ago by taking NRA basic and advanced pistol classes, as well as a combined defensive rifle / handgun class from my local instructor - All three classes cost me around $100. You can go bigger from there.
A few years later I hired on with the state DOC, and signed up for the ERO team. They paid ME to go to state academies and learn how to do things like building assaults, fugitive recovery, and riot control.
My larger point is: Now that I have a 1/2 decent idea of what is actually needed in a real life scenario, and have had to respond to a few incidents, I can see that the ideas I once had regarding equipment, planning, and engagement were unrealistic.
No piston attachment or fancy optic will ever substitute for that insight.
Please don't take this the wrong way - I don't think you need to BUY anything right now.
I took the liberty of reading the OPs for all of the threads you have started in your short time here, and It is apparent you are a gear head.
Let me be frank and say that I don't think you have much, if any, real experience or training.
I think you need to take the $3,000+ you are planning to spend on a single rifle, pistol, and pocket knife, and spend it instead on getting training.
Start by searching for one of your local NRA certified instructors. Many of them teach classes at the local level for very reasonable fees. I started years ago by taking NRA basic and advanced pistol classes, as well as a combined defensive rifle / handgun class from my local instructor - All three classes cost me around $100. You can go bigger from there.
A few years later I hired on with the state DOC, and signed up for the ERO team. They paid ME to go to state academies and learn how to do things like building assaults, fugitive recovery, and riot control.
My larger point is: Now that I have a 1/2 decent idea of what is actually needed in a real life scenario, and have had to respond to a few incidents, I can see that the ideas I once had regarding equipment, planning, and engagement were unrealistic.
No piston attachment or fancy optic will ever substitute for that insight.
JohnBiltz
Member
Probably not a popular thing to say but I will say it anyway, you accuse him of being a gearhead, there are a lot of training junkies around as well. Sure, learn how to shoot but there are an awful lot of training excess to needs as well. Thirty years ago there were not many training courses available and people managed.
Training is good if you don't have it. If you're not in an area where it's easy to get training, a .22 rifle and a brick of ammo (and a knowledgeable shooter) is a good start. A lot of us don't have much or any formal training and have gotten by.
But... we were tutored by fathers, grandfathers, uncles, and other mentors who taught us the basics.
If Safetyfirst is anywhere near my area and it's at all feasible for him to meet me at the nearest range, and if he's as new to this as we think he is, I'll donate a couple hours and some ammo to letting him get a little hands-on with some of my hardware. Especially if he shows up with couple boxes of ammo to contribute to his own learning.
Also, many (all?) states have hunter safety courses that can be taken by anyone. If you have no background in firearms or their safe use and handling, one might be a good use of time.
But... we were tutored by fathers, grandfathers, uncles, and other mentors who taught us the basics.
If Safetyfirst is anywhere near my area and it's at all feasible for him to meet me at the nearest range, and if he's as new to this as we think he is, I'll donate a couple hours and some ammo to letting him get a little hands-on with some of my hardware. Especially if he shows up with couple boxes of ammo to contribute to his own learning.
Also, many (all?) states have hunter safety courses that can be taken by anyone. If you have no background in firearms or their safe use and handling, one might be a good use of time.
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Potatohead
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Whats a "loadout"? 
Potatohead
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Interesting. I kind of see your point. This aint exactly 1983 Beirut.
(I'm not advocating no training ,if anyone is about to say that)
JohnBiltz
Member
Neither am I, I'm just making a point. Do you need a 1000 round 4 day carbine course to barricade yourself in your bedroom for a burglar?
JTHunter
Member
jdub3 said:
On a 2 foot square paper target that was 8 feet from the end of the barrels (10 feet from me), firing both barrels as described resulted in a hole the size of my fist in the center area but additional damage with a maximum diameter of 9 inches (paper plate size).
A 3-4" sized hole in a human torso (chest or abdomen) will be very effective.
On a 2 foot square paper target that was 8 feet from the end of the barrels (10 feet from me), firing both barrels as described resulted in a hole the size of my fist in the center area but additional damage with a maximum diameter of 9 inches (paper plate size).
A 3-4" sized hole in a human torso (chest or abdomen) will be very effective.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Statistically speaking, you don't even need a loaded gun for most self-defense use; however, I don't think anyone with any sense would advocate using an unloaded gun for self-defense if they could avoid it because the consequences of being on the wrong end of those statistics can be very severe.
Likewise, I doubt few people barricaded in their room while they listen to intruders moving through their house have ever thought "Man, I wish I had not wasted all that money on training and bought six more gun gadgets instead." Not to mention that many people wouldn't even appreciate how dangerous it is to not barricade without a little training to illustrate the issue.
I can tell you that in the Force-on-Force courses I've done, you have zero time to think about basic weapon manipulation even in the most simple scenarios. There is no time to think "focus on front sight, breather, relax, squeeze 80% with off hand, pull trigger straight back". You have to be doing that stuff automatically like breathing because you have plenty to think about tactics wise without having to worry about basic weapon manipulation.
I think so, if you are using a carbine to defend yourself. It is really, really, REALLY! hard to get too much training.
There was a Marine in Iraq who took a bullet to the spine while trying to change magazines and is now paralized in a wheelchair. His outstanding AAR cites his lack of realistic training as the reason he lost the firefight. Had he been taught (what he has now learned in multiple carbine courses), he wouldn't have had his head down, losing sight of the enemy, while slowly fumbling a mag change.
Here is a hypothetical "food for thought" question. If you were in a hut in Afghanistan with multiple armed enemies inside what gear and training would you want?
2nd question: if you are in your house with multiple armed criminals...how is the threat different than above?
You are preparing for a low probability, but high severity, worse-case scenario. I figure either actually prepare (reliable firearm, light and training) or don't bother.
Potatohead
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Fair point
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