New Member's Future Selections for Defense

[Safetyfirst]

My choices consist of two firearms, a primary SBR and a secondary handgun, and a knife. All selections are compliant with my state laws.

My handgun of choice, which I would conceal-carry as much as possible, would be the HK45 Compact Tactical. Chambered in .45 ACP, it’s the latest and most impressive evolution of a respected and proven design by Heckler and Koch. The barrel length is 4.75 inches and weighs 1.82 pounds unloaded. I would carry it with an 8-round magazine loaded, as well as several 10-round magazines in reserve. Attached to the underside would be a powerful weapon light. The barrel is threaded for recreational use with a suppressor.

My primary weapon would accompany me in my vehicle and my home, depending on location. It’s an SBR made by LWRC called the M6.8-UCIW, or Ultra-Compact Individual Weapon. It’s optimized for the 6.8x43mm SPC cartridge, a round that surpasses both the 5.56x45mm and the .300 Blackout in terms of muzzle energy and trajectory. Every major component of the gun has been resized to better accommodate the round, including its 30-round proprietary magazine. It uses a piston system to further enhance reliability. The barrel length is 8.5 inches and weighs 6.25 pounds unloaded. The stock and buffer have been shortened to improve maneuverability. A non-magnified optic would accompany the backup iron sights, as well as a dedicated light.

My last-ditch weapon, the ZT 0301, would be carried alongside the HK45CT. It’s an assisted opener with a titanium frame lock. It uses S30V steel with a Tungsten DLC coating. The blade’s length is 3.75 inches and it weighs 8 ounces.

Some may think these options are limiting, particularly the LWRC. Why didn’t I choose a more range-oriented setup, something that could tackle all the bases? The short answer is that I’m a civilian, not a soldier. I’m not going to war, and I don’t plan on using these guns in an aggressive manner. They were selected for defense, not assault. If a threat is farther than 300 yards, it’s not in your best interest to fire on it. It will draw unnecessary attention to you and those around you when you could instead be utilizing cover. If a threat is close by and an actual danger, taking action is a must. However, at a certain distance it’s no longer your responsibility and will effectively lessen your chances of survival, thus defeating the purpose of defending yourself. Feel free to carry around an AR-10 with a 20-inch barrel if you feel an obligation to protect every single person within 1,000 yards, but if that’s the case you’re probably better suited to a career in either military or law enforcement. A shorter, lighter platform will serve you much better for closer engagements or in confined spaces.

Why did I choose a rifle over a shotgun? Because you get faster follow-up shots, more precision, more controllability and faster reloads. The shotgun is, in my opinion, obsolete for practically everything except bird-hunting and door-breaching.

Thoughts? Concerns? Quips? Glad to join the high road, I'm sure I'll learn a lot here.

 

[mljdeckard]

You do know that you aren't getting paid by the word, right?

For someone who's a civilian, not a soldier, you are overthinking this more than most soldiers would.

If you can't use a shotgun effectively for defense, you haven't trained with it enough.

What is it you think a 6.8 will do in a defensive setting that 5.56 won't? You mock the range advantage of an AR-10.

What is it you think a piston gun will do that a DI gun won't?

 

[USAF_Vet]

Not a soldier, but you plan to carry more than most combat soldiers. Where do you live that carry "several 10 rounds magazines in reserve" is a necessity? Beirut?

Buy what you want that suits your needs. I have difficulty imagining a situation that would warrant carrying that much fire power, but if you determine it to be necessary, more power to ya.

 

[rcmodel]

+1 to everything mljdeckard said.

First, you do not need three weapons in your vehicle, or on your person to defend yourself.
In the VERY REMOTE possibility you might need to defend yourself in the first place.

Second, a SBR would raise the hackles on the back of every cops neck in a 10-15 mile radius if you got stopped in a simple license check traffic stop.
Let alone if you used it in a SD shooting.

If a threat is farther than 300 yards, it’s not in your best interest to fire on it.

In reality, if a threat is out of green teeth bad breath range of a few yards?
It is not in your best interest to fire on it.

You said yourself you are neither a cop nor a solder.

Methinks you might be a video game player though??

Just a guess?

rc

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, you've obviously put a lot of thought into your gear. I hope you'll apply that same level of passion towards good training on how to use it (if you haven't already).

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Welcome to The High Road!

What's your current level of experience with firearms?

 

[mdThanatos]

Just trying to figure out what kind of defense situation you are thinking of where you will need a rifle. Self defense is usually classified as a response to imminent danger, 300 yards is a little far, 25 yards is a little far as well imo. The biggest thing is to be proficient with what ever tool you choose. Since your selections are definitely not cheap it sounds like you will be able to afford the ammo for them as well, but practice is key.

 

[Leanwolf]

Practice, practice, practice for self defense.

L.W.

 

[Robert]

300 yards is about 295 yards outside of self defense range. If you can afford all these high end weapons go for it. Me, I get by with a 1911 and a pocket knife. 98% of the time it's just my knife. Let's keep things realistic and know that THR does not do SHTF or fantasy threads.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Several 10 round pistol magazines, huh.

Better buy a real sturdy belt.

 

[Safetyfirst]

"What is it you think a 6.8 will do in a defensive setting that 5.56 won't?"

Knock the bad guy down, for one thing

 

[allaroundhunter]

"What is it you think a 6.8 will do in a defensive setting that 5.56 won't?"

Knock the bad guy down, for one thing

I'm not getting into a caliber debate, it isn't worth it with how many we have had here lately.

I will, however say, good luck.

What you intend to keep on your person is enough to make me prefer carrying free weights instead.

Also, the SBR as a defensive weapon can cause you some legal headaches should you ever use it. What about the BCM or Wilson carbines that you are asking about in your other thread?

And as far as the knife goes, how much defensive hand to hand training do you have? How much knife specific training? Carrying a knife is one thing, but being competent in its use and how to fight with (and against) one is a completely different animal.


Again, I wish you the best, but contrary to your own statements, you certainly sound like you are preparing for war.

 

[Texan Scott]

Texas CHL qualifications set up targets at 3, 7, and 15 yards (with 4x the shots fired at 3&7 compared to the 15). Those are reasonable civilian self-defense ranges. A SBR in any caliber is likely unneeded.

....as are the half-dozen or so spare mags. How many shots do you envision needing if you one true intent is to stop the threat, disengage, and withdraw to safety?

 

[mljdeckard]

If you think 5.56 defensive round has any significant disadvantage under a 6.8, you haven't done enough real world homework. The 6.8 has some range advantages, but they don't apply to a defensive situation. You can use ammunition that is more effective at stopping than soldiers are allowed to use.

 

[Telekinesis]

"What is it you think a 6.8 will do in a defensive setting that 5.56 won't?"

Knock the bad guy down, for one thing

I think you have unrealistic expectations for your rifle. I'd also much rather have a 5.56 that breaks up in dry wall and doesn't wind up in my neighbor's house if I'm using the weapon for home defense. Your money will also go a lot further if you choose a weapon that is more standardized. As you get into proprietary weapons, replacement parts get more expensive and more difficult to find. And not that I think that LWRC is going to go out of business any time soon, but if they decide to change their piston system or even discontinue it, you're out of luck when it comes to replacement parts. And if you practice the weapon enough to fight well with it, you'll need to replace at least some parts due to normal wear.

If you use a SBR for defense, be prepared for some extra legal scrutiny. Even if it's a legitimate use of force, you'll still be answering questions about why you used a regulated weapon. On the other hand, if you're already set in using a NFA weapon, throw a suppressor on your rifle and at least protect your hearing.

 

[General Geoff]

300 yards is about 295 yards outside of self defense range.

Though unlikely, there is a not-zero chance of an aggressor opening fire from a significant distance, in which case 300 yards could very well be self defense. Extremely unlikely though, especially in an urban or even suburban setting. A rifle does offer that long range utility for those in more rural areas, though.



I also second the advice to use a silencer IF you're dead set on using NFA-regulated stuff, it will save your hearing and kill any muzzle flash and resulting temporary blindness, especially coming from an SBR.


Pragmatically speaking, I think you should pick up a bone stock AR with maybe a reflex sight, and take it to a carbine course or two. Get a feel for the rifle and how to use it under stress. THEN go looking into upgrades and NFA stuff.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Safetyfirst, I have shot competitively with people from all backgrounds, many military. I have shot with former Army SFOD-D, SEALs, and even Recon Marines. People who have used the AR/M16 platform in a role that most people never will.

Do you want to know the loadout that they choose for self defense? It is all quite similar actually.

1. Rifle caliber.

Want to guess how many of them use 6.8 SPC? Zero. Want to know how many use 5.56? All of them. If the 5.56 wouldn't do the job, then they wouldn't use it. Your reasons for choosing the 6.8 are founding on misinformation.

2. NFA.

Want to guess how many of them use a rifle with a suppressor or a SBR? Zero. There isn't a need for it, and this is coming from guys who all have used short barrel rifles to kill other 2 legged threats at one point or another in their lives. And they have each killed more people than a non-veteran civilian ever will.

3. Extra magazines.

They do vary slightly how many spare magazines that they carry. However, the average is pretty much one spare magazine on their person and another in their vehicle. And they each choose to carry a pistol with a capacity 13 rounds or higher. For rifle (when they have it in their vehicle) there is 1 magazine in the gun and 1 spare.

4. Knife.

Each person carries at least two knives. Some choose to conceal a fixed blade while carrying a folder for just daily work and some carry two folders. Some carry two "combat size" folders, one on each side of their body and some carry one "combat size" on their weak side and a daily work (smaller) knife on their strong side.

Each of these men know how to use a knife defensively (and offensively), but each also know good and well that they would much rather get the heck out of dodge than get into a knife fight. Even with the best of training, rarely can a person get out of a knife fight without losing blood. One of the men that I shoot with actually has scars from a hand to hand fight that he was in overseas where an insurgent (most likely untrained) was able to get a single slash in that almost caught an artery.

 

[tarosean]

you dont happen to run mall security do ya?

 

[Safetyfirst]

"And they each choose to carry a pistol with a capacity 13 rounds or higher."

Do you have any information on what their preferred caliber is, allaroundhunter?

 

[allaroundhunter]

"And they each choose to carry a pistol with a capacity 13 rounds or higher."

Do you have any information on what their preferred caliber is, allaroundhunter?

Actually, the preferred gun is a Glock 19, with some choosing a Glock 23. I believe that one carries a Sig P229 in .40.... But he may have been one to switch to the Glock 23. They pretty much split on the 9mm and .40 S&W.

Occasionally a 1911 (.45 ACP) will be carried, but that is typically in colder weather and carried OWB underneath a jacket.

One of them carries a .45 full time (FN I believe?).... But he also chose to carry a 7.62x51 rifle as his primary whenever he could overseas

 

[Bovice]

I'll take a lighter approach than most, because at some point we were all new and hadn't made the realizations yet.

5.56 is an ideal rifle cartridge for many reasons already stated but the biggest is standardized equipment. Most AR type guns, the SCAR, MSAR, and many more have all been fed by standard GI mags or their equivalent like the PMAG. Accessories and functional parts are also much the same, so spare parts and interchangeability are key. As for power, there's a good deal of it there and with recoil being low, you can take multiple shots in the same sight picture. Make it a ballistic tip or a JHP and it becomes incredible.

As for the pistol, anything you can shoot well and quick is the one for you. I'm back on a 9mm stint because going back to it showed me a significant speed increase. Put JHPs in for a defensive load and it's pretty substantial. A recent high profile case was over a situation where a single 9mm JHP stopped the attack cold, furthermore it was out of a very short barrel. It was a well placed shot, but it goes to show 9mm really isn't to be overlooked. Nothing at all wrong with the HK or .45, but it isn't the only thing that works.

The common catchphrase is that pistols are only the makeshift choice until you can get a rifle. Rifles are more powerful, but it's going to be very loud. Handguns don't squeak but it's very different.

Just some things to consider. Use what you have and get familiar, and try whatever you can outside that to see if the grass is greener over the fence. Usually your second or third purchase for guns in these roles is different from where you began. Sometimes you nail it the first go-around.

I won't say never, but in the off chance you have to use a gun, the distance will be a single digit number of yards or feet rather than at a distance that you may or may not need to compensate for wind, bullet drop, or the coriolis effect.

As for the knife, if it's a third layer of defense, you should probably get guns that are more reliable. It might be nice having it to slice that lime for your mojito. That's about it.

 

[Safetyfirst]

That's so confusing to me, it contradicts everything I've read about defensive handgun rounds. They really all don't carry .45s?

 

[allaroundhunter]

That's so confusing to me, it contradicts everything I've read about defensive handgun rounds. They really all don't carry .45s?

Nope. I'm not saying that the .45 is a bad round, I am just saying that from the people who have been in the kill or be killed situation, capacity is the more deciding factor over caliber.

The truth is, all handguns are poor stoppers. The .45 ACP is not a 1 shot stop, and with modern defensive ammo the 9mm is a solid performer. You have to decide whether you want slightly more power, or more capacity. Since I have not been in the situations that they have, I just take what I can from their experiences. None of them try to push others one way or another, they just tell what they have seen and how it impacts what they currently carry.

 

[Bovice]

The only SF guy (SEAL) I know of in modern times that carried a .45 was Chris Kyle. In his first book, he gave details on his chosen loadout pretty much down to the brand of skivvies he wore. It was a Springfield TRP 1911 and later the P220.

Any other account I've read or seen has been 9mm.

 

[Safetyfirst]

Well this has been eye-opening. Is there really any practical reason to utilize a 6.8 SPC rifle over a 5.56 when it pertains to hostile two-legs? Or is it strictly for hunting/range performance?