New Member's Future Selections for Defense
- Thread starter Safetyfirst
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mljdeckard
Member
The guys I work with in 19th Group carry.......M-9s with NATO FMJ 9mm.
Have you seen a slide crack simultaneously with the bullet bouncing off a bare chest?
Exotic things like 6.8 are cool nonetheless. I drive a Chevrolet but I wouldn't turn down a Ferrari if I could buy it.
I'll be honest, this thread has been good for me because I sold off one of my pistols that I have a duplicate of today. It was a .45, I almost cried, but they've been shot very little over the past year and adding a few hundo to my disposable income is nice. It's pretty much planned for bullets (all 9mm from our very own THR member longdayjake), powder, primers, and a fancy dinner with my new interest.
Feels good to get that off my chest.
Feels good to get that off my chest.
allaroundhunter
Member
For hostile 2 legs? Not in my opinion (or the guys that I shoot with). Using defensive ammo it is a great round with great terminal performance. All the 6.8 will do is cost you more to practice with. Get a 5.56 and then go take a combat rifle class with a reputable instructor. And I bet if you look in his handgun holster it won't be a .45, either
vaupet
Member
Hi, welcome at thr.
first, if you want an 6.8 sbr, great. I own 30 + guns, from safn (30-06 semi auto) and FAL down, for range use.
But I can't think of a self defence situation were they would be of any use.
For self defense (at home) I purely rely on my 9 mm usp, with 3 15 round mags. (my usp .45 match is reserved for the range, great pistol)
Secondly, You don't want to fire a rifle indoors at night and without hearing protection, because U will be deaf and blind for the next few minutes.
And then there is the problem of over penetration. A rifle round indoors would end up several room further or even at the neybours house.
have fun with a great hobby
first, if you want an 6.8 sbr, great. I own 30 + guns, from safn (30-06 semi auto) and FAL down, for range use.
But I can't think of a self defence situation were they would be of any use.
For self defense (at home) I purely rely on my 9 mm usp, with 3 15 round mags. (my usp .45 match is reserved for the range, great pistol)
Secondly, You don't want to fire a rifle indoors at night and without hearing protection, because U will be deaf and blind for the next few minutes.
And then there is the problem of over penetration. A rifle round indoors would end up several room further or even at the neybours house.
have fun with a great hobby
allaroundhunter
Member
Vaupet, both the 9mm and 5.56 are rated at about 155 dB, so they are both very loud.
Secondly, a 5.56 with defensive ammo will penetrate less (both tissue and building structure) than your 9mm with defensive ammo. So the overpenetration is actually less of an issue with a rifle vs a handgun.
I can't believe how often that false information is spread... It seems like it is never ending...
Secondly, a 5.56 with defensive ammo will penetrate less (both tissue and building structure) than your 9mm with defensive ammo. So the overpenetration is actually less of an issue with a rifle vs a handgun.
I can't believe how often that false information is spread... It seems like it is never ending...
vaupet
Member
In our country (as in the rest of europe), 'defensive ammo' is not allowed, we only have fmj. Using hollow point or softpoint in a self-defence situation is a oneway ticket to jail.
but of course U are right about the situation with frangible ammo in the us.
for sound, 9mm and 5.56 are equally loud and imho just bearable if really necesary.
but of course U are right about the situation with frangible ammo in the us.
for sound, 9mm and 5.56 are equally loud and imho just bearable if really necesary.
JohnBiltz
Member
Nothing wrong with the OP's choices really. Not the way I'd roll but there are certainly plenty of people carrying HKs and .45s.
6.8 makes a lot of sense out of a short barreled rifle. I'd get one chambered in 5.56 and then get one in 6.8 though. And if I only had one it would be in 5.56. Its also a pretty expensive choice to have sitting in your car waiting to be stolen. If I'm driving on a trip I will throw one in the trunk without a doubt. But not driving around town.
6.8 makes a lot of sense out of a short barreled rifle. I'd get one chambered in 5.56 and then get one in 6.8 though. And if I only had one it would be in 5.56. Its also a pretty expensive choice to have sitting in your car waiting to be stolen. If I'm driving on a trip I will throw one in the trunk without a doubt. But not driving around town.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Key difference is FMJ vrs. JHPs. If I have to carry FMJs (again), bigger (.45) makes slightly more sense. Being a retired guy, I get to carry what I like, which is JHPs in 9mm and JSPs in my AR-15.
Piston driven ARs make sense if you run a suppressor, otherwise DI guns give you less moving parts and can be modified to suit. Piston guns are proprietary, so if anything in the piston (upper) system breaks, got to go back to the original manufacturer.
MattShlock
Member
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- 787
I'd focus on training, as in graduating school, if I were you.
MagnumWill
Member
I'm sorry gentlemen, but this thread just *reeks* of the T-word. Don't feed it.
Personally, if you can afford a setup like that, be my guest. Do with it what you wish, just away from me.
Personally, if you can afford a setup like that, be my guest. Do with it what you wish, just away from me.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Not to mention that an AR in which every single part has been redrawn to be ideal for 6.8 rather than 5.56 is going to be extremely proprietary and poses all kinds of possible future compatibility issues.
leadcounsel
member
Welcome to guns and the forum.
Some members will be hard on you - I'd suggest dialing it down just a little on the verbosity.
Gun folks don't really talk or write like your original post. From the sounds of your post, it sounds like an advertisement for HK .45 ACP and the .300 blackout! Neither of these high priced weapons/caliber will do anything that weapons/ammo a 1/2 the cost will do for a civilian for self defense purposes. I'd suggest re-thinking this. Clearly you're new to guns. The 9x19mm will be 1/2 the price in ammo, allowing you to buy more ammo and train more. Same is true with the .300 blackout. If you can find it, it's going to be very expensive. Pick a more common caliber. Wars are fought with the very effective 5.56 and 7.62x39. I'd suggest an affordable SKS or AK47 and a pile of ammo. Then get to the range for training.
Your name is "Safetyfirst." Safety comes with training and trigger time.
A few thoughts. The 12 gauge is an incredible and versatile weapon. I'm a well-trained Army combat veteran, and in my personal arsenal I have many legal weapons to choose from. But the 12 gauge is definitely in my starting lineup. (Note: I do NOT have a 300 blackout. I see absolutely no purpose for this niche caliber in my lineup. It does zero that my .308 and .300 win mag and 5.56 and 7.62x39 won't accomplish, yet it is incredibly expensive and rare. You need versatility in your ammo selection and weaponry). The ancient AK47 with the 7.62x39 is hard to beat for home defense. Weapon, ammo, and mags and parts are widely available and affordable. That is also in my starting lineup.
There definitely is validity to using a long gun for home defense, and learning to use one effectively. While it is unlikely to ever need to shoot 300 yards, that is a skill you should have. I personally believe we are due for SHTF civil unrest on a large scale (for a variety of reasons, none important here), and we all can remember when the shop keepers in the LA Riots in the early 90's had to defend their property from marauders from rooftops with long guns. So you should be able to employ a long gun if it's called to duty. While unlikely, that's all I'll say about that.
You'll find that most people here will tell you that the equipment (high end pricey gear) is not as important as practice. If you have $10 you should spend the majority on ammo and practice and shooting schools. An inexpensive handgun/rifle and lots of trigger time is better than the priciest weaponry and no training.
Get to the range, take some classes/shooting schools, etc.
Some members will be hard on you - I'd suggest dialing it down just a little on the verbosity.
Gun folks don't really talk or write like your original post. From the sounds of your post, it sounds like an advertisement for HK .45 ACP and the .300 blackout! Neither of these high priced weapons/caliber will do anything that weapons/ammo a 1/2 the cost will do for a civilian for self defense purposes. I'd suggest re-thinking this. Clearly you're new to guns. The 9x19mm will be 1/2 the price in ammo, allowing you to buy more ammo and train more. Same is true with the .300 blackout. If you can find it, it's going to be very expensive. Pick a more common caliber. Wars are fought with the very effective 5.56 and 7.62x39. I'd suggest an affordable SKS or AK47 and a pile of ammo. Then get to the range for training.
Your name is "Safetyfirst." Safety comes with training and trigger time.
A few thoughts. The 12 gauge is an incredible and versatile weapon. I'm a well-trained Army combat veteran, and in my personal arsenal I have many legal weapons to choose from. But the 12 gauge is definitely in my starting lineup. (Note: I do NOT have a 300 blackout. I see absolutely no purpose for this niche caliber in my lineup. It does zero that my .308 and .300 win mag and 5.56 and 7.62x39 won't accomplish, yet it is incredibly expensive and rare. You need versatility in your ammo selection and weaponry). The ancient AK47 with the 7.62x39 is hard to beat for home defense. Weapon, ammo, and mags and parts are widely available and affordable. That is also in my starting lineup.
There definitely is validity to using a long gun for home defense, and learning to use one effectively. While it is unlikely to ever need to shoot 300 yards, that is a skill you should have. I personally believe we are due for SHTF civil unrest on a large scale (for a variety of reasons, none important here), and we all can remember when the shop keepers in the LA Riots in the early 90's had to defend their property from marauders from rooftops with long guns. So you should be able to employ a long gun if it's called to duty. While unlikely, that's all I'll say about that.
You'll find that most people here will tell you that the equipment (high end pricey gear) is not as important as practice. If you have $10 you should spend the majority on ammo and practice and shooting schools. An inexpensive handgun/rifle and lots of trigger time is better than the priciest weaponry and no training.
Get to the range, take some classes/shooting schools, etc.
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I agree with Will, this has obvious characteristics of someone who is advocating walking around with enough gear to go on a special forces op.
Either a mall ninja, or a young man with too much time on his hands. The other post he made about THR's members loadouts, seems indicative of someone who is in an altered state. Anyone who is planning on carrying around as many weapons and accessories as he has indicated, is either deluded or unbalanced, in either case he doesn't need any confirmation from here to add to his resume. When I start carrying an SBR in my car, and a surefire light, and supressor on my carry gun for general protection, we have come under attack.
Either a mall ninja, or a young man with too much time on his hands. The other post he made about THR's members loadouts, seems indicative of someone who is in an altered state. Anyone who is planning on carrying around as many weapons and accessories as he has indicated, is either deluded or unbalanced, in either case he doesn't need any confirmation from here to add to his resume. When I start carrying an SBR in my car, and a surefire light, and supressor on my carry gun for general protection, we have come under attack.
Arkansas Paul
Member
You are SOOOOOO over-thinking things.
Get a reliable handgun that you can shoot well for concealed carry and get a shotgun for home defense.
Your opinion is wrong. There is not a more reliable man-stopper on the planet (short of a hand grenade. Doubt you want to use those) at close quarters than buckshot.
And if you shoot someone at 300 yds and claim self defense, well, I hope you look good in stripes/orange jumpsuits because you'll likely be wearing one for a long time.
Get a reliable handgun that you can shoot well for concealed carry and get a shotgun for home defense.
Your opinion is wrong. There is not a more reliable man-stopper on the planet (short of a hand grenade. Doubt you want to use those) at close quarters than buckshot.
And if you shoot someone at 300 yds and claim self defense, well, I hope you look good in stripes/orange jumpsuits because you'll likely be wearing one for a long time.
Sheepdog1968
Member
Absolutely nothing wrong with your choices and rational. The most important thing (assuming they are utterly reliable) is that you practice a great deal with them till you are very comfotable and confident in using them. Firearms for self defense in my opinion is a rock, scissiors, paper game. No one weapon or system is perfect. You like what you have and I am fine with it. I use other things but my rational is no better or worse than yours. Enjoy and practice a lot. We are all lucky to have these delimas about what to choose.
silicosys4
Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2012
- Messages
- 3,667
Here is some future reading for you, lots of interesting discussion of preparing for situations that almost certainly won't occur
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
The Mall Ninja is easily distinguished by an abundance of “tactical” gear, such as fatigues, a thigh holster (with, of course, a Glock), combat boots, bandolier and other accouterments that you’d usually only see on a SWAT operative. Median age is usually 19-25, and they tend to boast about their various exploits with certain Special Forces units, all of which they’re too young and idiotic to have joined (real Special Forces types don’t brag). They typically have opinions on everything, regardless of expertise, they are uniformly poor shots, and they tend to exhibit a frightening lack of safety training."
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
The Mall Ninja is easily distinguished by an abundance of “tactical” gear, such as fatigues, a thigh holster (with, of course, a Glock), combat boots, bandolier and other accouterments that you’d usually only see on a SWAT operative. Median age is usually 19-25, and they tend to boast about their various exploits with certain Special Forces units, all of which they’re too young and idiotic to have joined (real Special Forces types don’t brag). They typically have opinions on everything, regardless of expertise, they are uniformly poor shots, and they tend to exhibit a frightening lack of safety training."
mdauben
Member
If you're limited to FMJ ammo, the evidence seems to indicate that the .45 is significantly more effective that tne 9mm. In the last twenty years, however, ever improving JHP ammo has significantly closed the gap to where the differences in effectiveness between 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP are getting hard to see. Certianly the .45 is still a fine SD choice, but the big three are close enough that the extra capacity of a 9mm pistol is a bigger factor for many people.
I've actually come around to the opinion that an AR in 5.56mm is a supperior HD long gun to the oft recomended 12ga loaded with 00 buck. Its lighter, more controllable, and handier than a 12 ga pump or semiauto and actually penetrates the same or less than 00 buck through interior walls.
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easyg
Member
I'm sure its a nice knife, but a folder that weighs 8 oz. is way too heavy.
I sure wouldn't want to lug that around all day...especially when you're already carrying a .45 pistol and extra magazines.
You're going to need a belt AND suspenders!
Yes and no...
If you're a soldier, trying to find and destroy the enemy, you're going to want high capacity.
But for a citizen trying to avoid encounters, using a weapon for self defense only, capacity is not so important.
allaroundhunter
Member
I was not making a general statement, I was relaying what current and former special operations soldiers have come to accept as their choice. They understand when they come back that they are no longer in a war zone, but they also understand that with modern defensive ammo caliber is less important than capacity. A hit to the CNS with 9mm will do the same as a hit with a .45. They prefer to have more rounds. They don't choose this so that they can shoot more, they choose this in case they have to shoot more.
It is a personal decision, so others can just as easily decide that caliber is more important than capacity, but we don't need to get into that here.
easyg
Member
Back when I was a soldier the SF guys I knew mostly despised the 9mm.
allaroundhunter
Member
In combat? Yes, the guys I know do as well. But many of them carry it when back stateside (the ones that I shoot with at least).
Safetyfirst
member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2013
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- 58
I'm not a mall ninja or anyone resembling Gecko45. I'm just a guy who wanted to feel safer. I never expected I would have to use a rifle in a defense situation, but I thought that as long as I was gonna start carrying I might as well have one. To those who are calling me "unbalanced," I resent that and would like to reiterate that I am a healthy, mentally sound person who was trying to make an informed decision.
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