Much-Revised Defense Loadout

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The primary determinant in any firearm's effectiveness is shot placement. Many people are more comfortable with a shotgun than any other firearm and they shoot them well due to their familiarity.

Additionally when loaded with #1 buck or better at household ranges against unarmored targets, shotguns have unbeatable terminal ballistics and are highly effective at stopping a threat. A 12ga shotgun can put more projectiles downrange than a submachinegun.

The flip side is that they have limited ammo capacity, limited range, heavy recoil, and due to the whimsical nature of the National Firearms Act are often longer than carbines. In my own personal experience, novices almost always make better hits in less time with an AR15; but a shotgun can certainly be a formidable weapon - especially when run by someone who knows how to use it. Here is a recent thread comparing a shotgun and an AR in the home defense role: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724338

I use an AR15 for my home defense longgun myself because I am more familiar with that and better trained with it; but again, the training is more important than the tool. Someone who shoots thousands of rounds of trap and skeet (a fun sport in its own right) or who is out in the dove fields every year, may find the shotgun a better personal choice. A lot of times what works for one person may not work as well for another - which is one reason I don't recommend spending a large portion of your budget on gear before you've had a chance to test drive it in training.

 

[Honest John]

Assuming it was, in the unlikely event you're in a gunfight, kinetic energy will do you much more service than whatever pile of cash you've spent trying to look like a video game version of a SEAL.

 

[BullfrogKen]

OK people, enough with calling the new guy a troll.

 

[pockets]

In response to why my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty, it's because those people know what they're doing and there is a lot of experience behind their choices.

Not necessarily......military or LEO.
As has been said several times, military service is not like a 3-gun competition.
And LEOs? Departments differ, but I have four close relatives who are LEOs in 4 different cities (3 states).
None of the 4 chose the weapon they carry in uniform...they carry what they were issued.
None of the 4 chose their off-duty weapon either....those were issued as well.
One (Dept Chief) has not qualified with his handgun in over 5 years due to tremors, the other three rarely shoot their sidearms.
Shooting guns is NOT their vocation, law enforcement is.
They get far more training and time in with radar guns than with the one on their belts.
.

 

[pockets]

Why do people choose shotguns over semi-auto rifles for home defense?
Other than kinetic energy I see zero advantage IMHO

Why do people like Mocha Latte or Lady Gaga? Individual preference....but....
How big is your parent's house? How large is the lot it's on? I don't have a small house (not a mansion either)...but it's only 30 feet max anywhere inside. The average distance I'd shoot inside would be around 10-15 feet. Other than possibly better familiarity with one platform over the other, what advantage would a 300+ yard rifle give me over a shotgun? Outside it might be different....if you live in a rural area.
But then it could be; "Honest officer, I feared for my life, he was only 200 yards from my front door and he looked mad!".
.

 

[Rocketmedic]

Simple, easy, dead-reliable, and minimal aiming required. Line up sights, pull trigger.

 

[Spats McGee]

Why do people choose shotguns over semi-auto rifles for home defense? Other than kinetic energy I see zero advantage IMHO

For a couple of reasons. In no particular order:

• Experience with the weapon -- A shotgun may give up capacity to an AR, but some folks have much, much more experience with a shotgun than with an AR. Last year, I shot my first 3-gun match. One of the lessons that I learned is that I handle a shotgun far better than I do a semi-auto rifle. I've hunted with a shotgun for years, but never with a rifle. It showed, too. My shotgun runs were smoother and faster than my rifle runs.
• Environment -- A semi-auto rifle may be the better job if I have to shoot a moving target at 200 yards, but my home is nowhere near that large. What advantage does a semi-auto have over a shotgun at 20 feet? That's the question I need to ask myself, because someone in my home is likely within 20 feet of me. Since I live in an apartment, I also have to concern myself with the possibility of having a stray round go through a wall. Choose the right weapon for the right purpose.

 

[mdauben]

what advantage would a 300+ yard rifle give me over a shotgun?

Lighter, shorter, less recoil, easier to shoot, greater capacity, quicker to reload. I'm certainly not saying that a shotgun isn't a good HD weapon, but the AR platform has advantages other than range.

 

[Kleanbore]

The word "defense" is in the thread title, and the OP has mentioned carrying a handgun and keeping a long gun for home defense.

We have mentioned training and the importance of mindset over skillset and of the latter over toolset before. It has been suggested that training precede weapon selection, but many of us choose a firearm or firearms and then end up making changes after gaining some personal experience.

I'll offer some personal observations on the subject of selecting a handgun.

It's not at all a bad idea do do some research here and elsewhere on the web, but you need to find out something for yourself. That is, how well you can shoot a particular firearm. And you have to decide how you are going to carry it, and whether it really meets your needs in that regard.

One will have to accept some compromises with respect to concealability and "shootability". Many people I know choose very compact firearms for concealment, but most of us find it difficult to shoot them well. Also, some of us insist on higher capacity.

A little over a year ago, I decided to acquire an additional handgun for concealed carry. I did some research and went to the shop with a rather open mind. I looked at compact versions of most of the well known, highly regarded service semi-autos, and at the full size Browning Hi-Power.

I found quickly that some of them really did not fit my hand very well, or that I could not easily operate some of the controls one handed; both were show stoppers. I found that I did not like the trigger pull on some of them. And even though I had had a DA/SA pistol for home defense for over four decades, I have decided that I really don't like that system very much. Also, some of those guns were just too big to carry all the time.

This is not a recommendation for anyone else, but I ended up buying a Ruger SR9c. I really like it. It is compact and light, it fits my hand well, and it shoots well. I like the trigger pull, the ambidextrous safety, and the loaded chamber indicator. I had been carrying a similar compact semi-auto produced by one of Ruger's competitors, and I found something unexpected that I had never read about anywhere: when I fired the other one for say, fifty rounds, my trigger finger would end up stinging for some reason. Not so with the Ruger. It now serves as my everyday carry pistol.

I considered adding a laser sight to the Ruger, but I learned something that I had not considered: none of the makers of really good leather holsters will make one for the Ruger with a laser. I can get a plastic holder that would fit, but not a leather one.

No, one will not see a good custom leather holster in service use these days, but experience has led some of us to think that that's really the way to go.

Some things that you cannot learn from asking others include how well a firearm fits your hand; how easy it is for you to operate it; how well you can shoot it; and how well it meets your concealment needs. You have to find out those things yourself.

That does not mean that you should not seek out advice. I looked around here to see what I could find out about the Ruger. And the fact that two of the very experienced guys behind the counter at the shop were wearing them told me something.

Understand that I am not new to the game. I have been firing handguns for half a century. I have been carrying for five years. I have taken high performance defensive pistol courses.

The Ruger is now my choice for everyday carry, but not everyone would choose one. Nor is it my idea of the best shooter. For that, I'll choose a high-end 1911 type pistol with a good SA trigger and grip and thumb safeties, and yes, I carry one, in a custom Milt Sparks holster, when I do not mind the weight.

If I could carry openly in the out of doors, I would most likely strap on a good revolver when it suited the occasion. Again, we always have to make some compromises.

I hope this helps.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

In response to why my selections are similar to what those in uniform run when they're off-duty, it's because those people know what they're doing and there is a lot of experience behind their choices. For those who are mocking my choices since I'm not planning a "military operation," I see no reason why I should settle for cheaper or less ergonomic firearms simply because I may not need their full potential. And finally, for those of you with nothing better to do than make fun of my choices of vocabulary or attempt to predict my age and lifestyle, perhaps this wasn't the best place to gain knowledge on the subject. Right now the flavor of this forum is a tad hostile and accusatory, like I stumbled into a secret club that isn't accepting new members.

Well, the thing is, there are forums where people are very gung-ho about military equipment, fanatically loyal to particular brands with perceived connections to 'special force operators' or whoever, and think that having the same equipment will make them just as 'cool,' with zero regard for the importance of a sober and mature mindset combined with training. This forum is basically the antithesis of that, so you rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Nobody's fault, it was just a culture clash.

The question of whether the suggested firearms are cheaper and less ergonomic is moot. What people are saying is that they don't think there's much point to spending a ton of money on really expensive equipment without the experience to know whether or not that's actually what you like and need. There's also undoubtedly a touch of envy, since most of us can't afford to put that much money into it right at the start. Lord knows I'd like to be able to afford the stuff you're talking about.

Basically, in the practical experience of most members here, an H&K is not in any way superior to a Glock or M&P for a third the price. It's just a matter of preference, so it may have rankled a little when you came in and assumed that it was superior, which many have taken to mean that you're a know-nothing who was taken in by the rabid advertising and cult following of the wannabe 'tactical operator' community.

With respect, it sounds like you don't really know anything, and that's not a harsh reflection on you, it just means you're a beginner. I certainly didn't know anything when I started. I hope you stick around and learn. This is a good forum.

 

[leadcounsel]

Originally Posted by Safetyfirst View Post
Why do people choose shotguns over semi-auto rifles for home defense? Other than kinetic energy I see zero advantage IMHO

The practical answer is that a 12 gauge HD 18.5" pump shotgun is at or near the top of the food chain for reliable, effective, easy, and affordable civilian home defense. Also consider the legal aspects if you end up in court.

1. Reliable. These designs that are now implemented by Mossberg and Remington have been used and improved for a century and are battle tested and proven for military, police, and civilian use for decades. They simply work.

2. Effective. 00 Buck will instantly deliver up to 9, .33 caliber lead or copper plated lead balls into your aggressor with massive kinetic energy, and probably equivalent to a direct hit from a submachine gun burst.

3. Easy. The pump gun is crazy easy to use. The only common issue is short-stroking the pump, and that can be overcome with practice. For "home defense" distances, commonly under 30 feet, you just point and shoot. Some aiming is needed, but it's minimal. Unlike a traditional handgun or longgun, you could probably score a hit firing from the hip at HD distances (although not recommended).

4. Affordable. ANYONE can afford a 12 gauge pump gun. New they are around $350. If you look in the local classified ads, they are commonly available for under $250. In the last 3 years, I've purchased excellent used Mossberg 500s x 2, a Maverick 88, and Remington 870 models for $150, $160, $115, and $175 respectively. Shells are easy to find and affordable too.

5. It's worth mentioning that a HD shooting, if questionable, may be less difficult to defend if you shoot with a common shotgun versus some tricked out military rifle. That's not the main consideration, just worth noting. (Note that I personally do have an evil AK47 as a go-to HD longgun, riding next to my 12 gauge shotguns. The AK is more for the multiple determined home invader type threat, or as a backup rather than a reload of the 12 gauge, and it does give me more accurate range in the unlikely event the threat is outside.)

I've mentioned it before but will repeat that the 12 gauge is an outstanding HD weapon.

 

[xfyrfiter]

12 ga hammerless double barrel SxS as primary, kiss AR in 5.56 with a red dot and co witness irons as secondary. Reasons, SxS is absolutely reliable and when loaded with 00 is absolutely devastating at HD distances, AR is a completely reliable backup and would only be called into service if there were multiple home invaders. EDC is either a SR-9 with one mag spare, or a security six with a speed loader, and a reliable folding knife that i can manipulate with one hand. If two 12 ga 00 loads will not stop the misguided individual then he is pretty much is superman.LOL These choices have been made with 50+ years shooting experience, and economy in mind.

 

[2@low8]

Safetyfirst - The impression I’m getting is that you are doing a lot of research and making the wish list of a person who cannot buy a firearm, for whatever reason, at this time.

Please tell us what firearms and knives that you have and what you are doing with them so that intelligent recommendations can be made.

 

[strambo]

I'd get a Colt 6920 with Magpul furniture...can be had for ~$1100, mount a sling, light, and Aimpoint PRO. Total cost about $1600-1700 ready to go.

http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/COLE6920MP-B.aspx

Get a vanilla G19, some basic gear (the minimum to take a course) and put the rest of your budget into ammo and training. After a 3-5 day pistol and 3-5 day carbine course, you can then decide what to do.

For gear, consider the US Palm defender. Add a few pouches (spare pistol/AR mag(s), handheld light, knife?, cell phone? flex cuffs? Then, something goes bump in the night, it would only take 5 seconds to put that on (after first grabbing your gun and a light). Everything you need at hand plus armor. Way better than just a rifle/pistol and boxers.

http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/USP00400324.aspx

I had a custom carrier made for military style armor I had already, I have 1 AR mag in a fast-mag pouch. 1 20rd mag for my Sig, Surefire G2, small knife and 2 flex cuffs. Oh, and an empty holster for the Sig, that way if I did grab the pistol first, I have somewhere to put it if I need both hands.

If you end up getting the Jack carbine down the road, the Colt is one heck of a spare AR. Same for the G19, fantastic pistol as a back up/spare if/when you upgrade.

The Army gave me many years of infantry experience, the majority of it with a Colt M4, so when buying civilian ARs, I already had a strong foundation and added things I knew I wanted as upgrades to what I was issued. My primary handgun is a 9mm Sig P226...only because I was issued one as a contractor and got really good with it. Before that I didn't like DA/SA guns. At my Gunsite pistol course I was hanging with the SWAT guys shooting 1911s.

On AR vs. shotgun for HD...either with the right load is a great choice. The AR is the better overall weapon to have IMO if you are only getting one long gun (for now).

 

[easyg]

Here's a reply I gave to different thread, but it applies here as well...

Forget the long guns, stick with the handgun.

Here's an example why....

You're been watching the evening news and sipping a cold beverage and now you need to answer nature's call.
Now you're in the bathroom taking care of business when you hear the sound of glass breaking!
Unfortunately you're in the bathroom while your shotgun is in the bedroom.


You're not going to have the rifle or shotgun with you when you're checking your mail or walking your dog around the yard.

You're not going to carry your rifle or shotgun room to room with you as you carry out your daily activities.

You're not going to sit on your balcony or patio or the front porch with the rifle or shotgun by your side.

You're not going to answer the doorbell with a rifle or shotgun in your hand.


But you can have your handgun with you all the time...while checking the mail box, while eating breakfast at the kitchen table, while surfing the internet at your desk, while walking the dog, while answering the doorbell, while using the bathroom, while working on your car in the garage, while sitting on the back deck, while sitting on your front porch, while taking the garbage to the curb, etc....

Rifles and shotguns are great weapons, but you're just not likely to have them at hand when you really need them.
Soldiers carry them everywhere they go, but civilians don't.

 

[goon]

One advantage of the 12 gauge pump is that they're cheap.
They're something everyone can afford but they're still very effective.
And if you have to use it in an HD scenario and it gets confiscated, it's not so expensive that you can't easily replace it or have another already on hand.
I would feel entirely confident using one for self-defense (assuming I had put in a little regular practice with it).

Realistically, a shotgun is entirely capable of meeting a good 90% of the defensive needs you'll ever have.
I think a 5.56mm carbine is a better choice when you come right down to it. Recoil is lighter, more ammunition, more accuracy, and less chance of overpenetration when you hit the target.
But if I found myself armed with a good Mossberg or Remington 12 gauge, I don't think I'd wet my pants in fear and immediately surrender to my attackers. Five rounds of 00, 0, No. 1, or No. 4 buck shot with the ability to slip in a slug if you need to is A WHOLE LOT of defensive firepower.

Look at it this way - you could buy a decent used Mossberg 500 and use that for your HD needs while you save up money for rifle and handgun. If you decide it's not for you, you can resell it later and recover your money and you'll have the experience of having owned and used one.

Easy G also makes a good point. A good concealable handgun has a lot going for it. I stopped an animal from chewing the hell out of me and infecting me with rabies once because I had a handgun in my back pocket at the time. A whole rack of AR-15's back at the ranch wouldn't have done me as much good as that little .357 did that day.

And I don't know what the OP's budget is, but I'm pretty sure that if I had to I could hit the classifieds and local gun stores and have myself well-armed with a lightly used 9mm semi-auto or .38/.357 revolver and a pump shotgun for around $500-$600 today, ammo and a spare magazine included. I could substitute a used lever action 30-30 for the shotgun if need be, depending on whether my circumstances made a rifle a good choice.
Bottom line - we'd all love an unlimited budget, but you don't have to liquidate your entire trust fund to have decent defensive firearms.

 

[Kleanbore]

Regarding Long Arms

Just a few points to ponder....

There is a video that has been making the rounds showing a slightly built woman shooting a 12 ga pump and an AR, and she is much more effective with the AR. For someone who knows how to operate one, the AR is probably more useable than a pump shotgun.

It should not be believed that, at indoor distances, it is not necessary to aim a shotgun. The pattern at ten or fifteen feet is so small that aiming is necessary.

I am a real side by side double fan and have been for a very long time, but not for self defense.

In the event that the evidence pieced together after a shooting is questionable, research shows that the mere appearance of either black rifle or a "tactical" shotgun can have an unfavorable effect on jury psychology.

I don't think either has much of a place in the automobile for defensive purposes, unless you are out replacing salt blocks or mending fences where you may encounter some deperadoes who cannot afford to leave a witness.

One of our members recommends a 20 gauge shotgun over the 12 because of the lighter recoil, and I would prefer the lower sound level. If anyone ever introduces a good short semi auto trench gun that doesn't look like it was intended for SWAT use, I might buy one.

However, easyg makes some very valid points. This will depend a lot upon home layout and personal circumstance, but in my case, a long arm is not likely to prove very useful for home defense unless someone just happens to break into the house when we happen to be where the gun is.

Most gun enthusiasts do have long arms. I do. But I do not rely on one for defense. I would not criticize anyone who does, however.

Hope this helps.

 

[Spats McGee]

Most gun enthusiasts do have long arms. I do.

I do, too. I can't find shirts that fit right fer nothin'.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

A key point in EasyG's reasoning though is that you actually have to carry the handgun. The whole point of a handgun is you sacrifice accuracy and power in exchange for convenience. If you then decide to leave the handgun locked in a bedside safe (as many gunowners do), it is no more convenient than a long gun and still has less power and accuracy.

If you are actually going to carry the handgun, I think it is the first priority for purchase and training because one thing you want in a gunfight is to have a gun and it is easier to carry a handgun. If you aren't ready mentally for that step (mindset) then a long gun is as easy to access, but easier to hit with and hit harder (although a handgun may still offer some ease of use).

The ideal of course, is to have both. If time is limited, use the handgun. If you have been reading the Strategies & Tactics forum and have a little warning of an impending problem, use the extra time to access a better weapon.

So strictly in terms of gear:

Identify a handgun you are confident with and can use well. Caliber is less important than a round that meets the FBI criteria for terminal ballistics and is cheap enough you can afford to train with it. Remember, shot placement is #1.

Get a quality holster and belt that you can and will wear with your existing wardrobe and that is comfortable to use.

When you are trained to a level where you are confident with that gear, then I would start hitting the budget for a long gun to back it up.

 

[armsmaster270]

This plus a knife, and a spare mag in the console is my daily loadout. As far as rifles that is on a case by case situation, M-1 Garand 7.62x51, SKS 7.62x39, Browning A Bolt i.n 7mm WSM. I always carry a few boxes of spare ammo in my trunk, 38, 357, 40,& 357Sig.

 

[RBid]

What is the purpose of this "load out"? The thread title includes a reference to defense, but I'm failing to conceive of a scenario where this plays.

 

[Field Tester]

Safetyfirst,

Do you mind me asking how old you are? You seem to have a taste for the exotic, I'm intrigued. I'm looking up some of the guns you've mentioned. Good reading. I'm always curious how a person first gets turned on to a particular product, I'm weird like that. You can see the evolution of the thought process. What first caught your eye about these particular firearms? Do you have a backup in mind if they're hard to find?
Well I'm off to read more about them. Need to find a good knife for myself as well.

 

[Field Tester]

Safetyfirst,

I think another reason everyone is giving you the advice they are is two fold. One, you asked for it. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question. Now granted a few could have been more tactful with their responses.
Two, is that we have seen new shooters get burned out way too quickly. They buy the best and spend a pretty penny but don't get the results they expect. They blame the firearm, ammo, gear etc... when that's not the reasons they should be upset. We assume you're a younger new shooter based off the type of questions you're asking and the manner in which you're asking them. Also you haven't told us otherwise (at least I haven't seen so).

So what is your experience level? Which firearms do you have experience with? Which ones are you proficient with?

We want you to be safe, responsible and enjoy your tools. We're honestly trying to help. Answering the questions I've asked will help us help you.

 

[JTHunter]

Bartholomew Roberts said:

Additionally when loaded with #1 buck or better at household ranges against unarmored targets, shotguns have unbeatable terminal ballistics and are highly effective at stopping a threat. A 12ga shotgun can put more projectiles downrange than a submachinegun.

That's why I like my old 12 ga. SxS-double trigger. Front trigger has a 3" 00 Buck on a Skeet 1 choke (15 pellets, 0.33") while the back has a 3" #4 Buck (40 pellets, 0.25") with an IC choke. At 8-10 feet, you get a "cloud" of 55 pellets and all that is left is "ground round".

If that isn't enough to take the wind out of their sails, hanging from the same gunrack are a .357 Mag revolver and an AK with a full 40 rd. banana.

 

[jdub3]

^ I still don't think the "cloud" of lead coming out of your sxs will be much more than an inch or three in diameter.

I like shotguns, but shoot carbines better, so my go-to long gun is a mini-14.