Murders Soar in the UK

[Baba Louie]

Why do we even care what happens in England?

For a very good reason methinks. Allow me to wander about the point for a bit.
Our beloved politicians feel the need now and then, to experiment socially and follow trends set elsewhere in the world... might be one reason to care. "Let's keep our laws similar to the olde country from whence they came".

Another would be from a historical P.O.V. Many of our nation's original settlers were Brits through and through, who considered themselves "Colonists" but British, from whom we eventually broke ties (darn those Republican rebels anyway)... thus it is out of a historical obligation to see where our forebears go slightly agly and learn lessons, hopefully not to repeat when they ere on the side of "freedom and liberty" for the little man.

Third, even tho' we do love to look at others and judge their actions, we do tend to ally ourselves to certain nationalities, Great Britian being one of the foremost. When they do go agly, we feel compelled to so note hoping against hope, that some of our rebellious nature will somehow magically "right" the aglieness they've transpired to if only they'd listen.

sigh

Alas and Anon. I fear in some ways they do ape us... but in the wrong manner of speaking in this case.

We are not an island, isolated from the rest of the world. It behooves us to take note of what is (and what is not) happening elsewhere, from time to time as opposed to remaining aloof and above mere lesser mortals not worthy of our notice.

One of the real problems no one wants to deal with (or they know NOT how TO deal with) is that of immigration of outsiders who bring different thought process with them, some of which will certainly, corrupt our youth. (note the use of the loaded word "corrupt") Thought process not conducive to maintaining auld lang syne.

"We fear change", said Garth.

Some fear violence and have forgotten how to deal with it in a manly fashion.

Why do we even care what happens in England?

Lest we forget.

 

[TIZReporter]

A GUN is simply a tool.

The user of that tool decided when he or she picks it up what they will do with it. Be that good or evil.

TIZ

 

[toivo]

For instance, the Japanese have such a low crime rate, not because of their laws, but simply because that's the way the Japanese are.

It's a combination of the two. Prisons in Japan are harsh: Extremely strict rules, very few privileges, solitary confinement where prisoner are required to kneel on the floor all day and are beaten if they don't, etc. What's more, most Japanese families (with the exception of yakuza) will complete cut off contact with a family member who goes to prison: "I don't have a son." Executions are carried out in secret and families are only notified after the fact so that they can come and pick up the ashes and personal effects of the executed person.

Japanese courts have a conviction rate of 99.7% and there is tremendous gov't pressure on prosecutors and judges to get convictions. Most convictions are the result of confessions.

Japan is a very shame-based society, and the social pressures combine with the laws to keep crime rates low. It's not something we could adopt here without a complete change of social structure and beliefs.

Click here for more info on Japanese prison conditions.

 

[sterling180]

[/IMG]

Does any UK shooter want these guys faces, on their club targets,because after all these two deviants were responsible for our bans and our biased media? When you look at them,you think 'scumbags'.

It amgers me that these two small,weedy and pathetic scumbags killed innocent people(Including elderly people and small Elementary School kids.) and the rest of us,now have to suffer the consequences,19 and 10 years on.

I would like to print their faces on the McQueens targets,for PSG events.

 

[nramember2]

Just blame the gun.

http://progunforum.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=debate&action=display&thread=1152585730


Do we blame the car When somebody uses it as a weapon?
Sorry for being such a radical but this is my favorite subject.

 

[sterling180]

Do we blame the car When somebody uses it as a weapon?
Sorry for being such a radical but this is my favorite subject.

You are right NRA Member 2,but the difference is this is the UK not the USA.Indeed the UK,think that there are more people out there like Ryan and Hamilton.

 

[Fosbery]

Putting pictures of people on our targets, whilst satisfying in the case of those two monsters, is a bad idea in my opinion. I think people have a hard enough time accepting shooting and firearm on their own, adding the connotations of shooting people will only make them less acceptable. I never wear camouflage when I go shooting, and I didn't when I was in the service (even though it was my privilege at places like Bisley), because I think we have to work to make firearms and shooting more acceptable in the UK. Saying 'sod it' and dressing like militia men and shooting at pictures of murderers is not the way to do it. First, we need to make shooting, the sport, acceptable. Then we can look towards firearms for self-defence and so on. I know it's silly. Why shouldn't we shoot what we like when it's not hurting anyone? Why shouldn't we wear what we like? Well we should be able to do those things, but I'd rather focus on getting my pistols back into the country first

 

[sterling180]

Yes,you are probably right Fosbery,but I got the idea from the USA-where shooters over there put up targets,that had Bin Ladens picture printed on them.I thought 'If they can have Bin Laden,why can't we have Ryan and Hamilton' as our hate figures.Oh but it wouldn't be politically correct anyway.

 

[Stand_Watie]

I'd move countries if they'd let me in, but they won't.

If you ever get serious about emmigrating, let us know. It's a political game like everything else, and letters to congressmen from US voters do make a difference.

 

[bumm]

There is definitely a different mindset among the citizens of the UK than America concerning guns. I recently participated in a thread in an air guns group concerning increased regulation of air guns in the UK. I was surprised at how calm and compliant some of the British fellows were about he whole thing. Some of the argument was probably due to defensiveness about one's homeland, (I can be guilty of that too,) but still, I was surprised at how easily these air gun shooters accepted more regulation.
One fellow pointed out that the gun bans reduced the rate of massacres after Hungerford and Dunblane. I got out of the thread because it was deteriorating into crude insults and name calling, but still, such things are really so RARE that one can hardly say that since there have been no more that the "rate" has decreased, or the gun bans are responsible.
Oh well...
Marty

 

[P95Carry]

Stirling - ex Brit here - now US citizen.

Thx to the two scumbags you mention I was deprived of a 24 gun handgun collection and had a Mini 14 and Stirling 9mm carbine ''neutered'' years before that.

Sadly tho Ryan - re semi's - was a mere catalyst - as was Hamilton with handguns. IMO the Gov was just waiting to remove the privelage of gun ownership - any excuse. The bleatings of all the anti gun sheep were for them votes to catch - and so - guns-be-gone.

This never addressed the illegal firearms - the only ones broadly to present any risk - plus the fact that Hamilton was given an FAC renewal when it should never have happened.

Beats me why average UK sheep feel so safe these days with legal guns out of the frame. So, so sad when i look at how the old GB has gone - I miss it not and am saddened my dear daughter has to endure that as a place to still live. My son fortunately is over here.

 

[Fosbery]

I'm seriously considering moving. Just not sure where yet. The US has the best firearms laws, with CCW, but I'd prefer to live somewhere like Finland, but I don't believe they have CCW there.

 

[Cromlech]

I would also like to live in a 'free state' part of the U.S.A, but it's not that easy to uproot myself.

Ah well.

 

[Boom-stick]

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomstick
I'd move countries if they'd let me in, but they won't.


If you ever get serious about emmigrating, let us know. It's a political game like everything else, and letters to congressmen from US voters do make a difference.

Thanks for the offer, but being born in the UK doesn't put you on the list of acceptable persons


The whole Ryan and Hamilton thing has been discussed before and the events that happened, as bad as they were simply turned for a purpose that has had a long standing agender in the UK and that is the complete dis-armament of the private citizen.

It is an agenda that has slowly been enforced on UK shooters since the 1930's with the initial licensing of firearms and each time an event occurs that allows the enforcement of more restrictions, it is jumped on.
The govenment believe and have pridicted that by 2020 un-employment will be at such levels there will be a breakdown of society resulting in social anarcy & un-rest. And they don't want firearms in public hands when this happens.

 

[Fosbery]

2020???

Unemployment is virtually nil in the UK right now

It is rising to be sure, but when compared to the rest of the world we pretty much have full employment.

 

[Boom-stick]

I just simplifed what I'd heard for the sake to my typing fingers

It's not just unemployment but the social anarcy breakdown as society caves in it's self and I believe they think it's around 2020 so read anything from 2006 onwards then....

 

[Fosbery]

Wow, who'd have guessed the UK government wern't only fascists, but tin-foil-hat-wearers to boot!

On a slightly off topic note:

I was thinking the other day about how I hate it when people presume that, because I advocate gun ownership and use, I am right wing. If anything, I'm a raving lefty (in the good way, not the pseudo-left-wing Russian/Cuban/Chinese/Vietnmaese/N Korean way). Deregulation of firearms in the UK is a liberal or left wing idea, not a right wing one. Right wingers and conservatives are interested in maintaining the status quo, keeping traditional values and system in place. We have had unregulated firearms for several centuries, that's true, but we've never had a real culture of gun ownership like in the US and Switzerland and Scandinavia. And for the past century we have had regulated firearms, so you could say that has now become a traditional system. Liberals and left wingers are interested in reforms, change and liberty. Deregulating firearms is a pretty radical change I'd say. So it occured to me that in the UK, widespread firearms ownership is a left wing idea, but in the US it is a right wing one (because it is a tradition to be maintained, not a radical new idea to be implemented).

 

[sterling180]

The govenment believe and have pridicted that by 2020 un-employment will be at such levels there will be a breakdown of society resulting in social anarcy & un-rest. And they don't want firearms in public hands when this happens.

So thats why that 'Controls on Firearms' document was issued by the Home Office,in draft format-basically to strip us of pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns and .22 rifles.However the antis were defeated,but only temporarily-because,it is doubtful that the documents were completely destroyed:they were probably stored in the Home Office archives,in a secure vault,and would be made available,should another gun massacre occur,with those guns that were listed.

The final types of repeating weapons,to be banned would be:Bolt-action rifles,lever-action rifles and finally break-action weapons-once the last of the repeaters has gone-possibly in 2017 or 2018.If anyone notices,that the government are quite silent on the whole gun issue and if they take all guns away-we are easy game for anarchists-with nothing but pickaxe handles and crude clubs for defence.It's time Mr big eared creepy Blair woke up from La la land and stepped into the real world.

By the way, British shooters would love some "illegal weaponry" from the USA,in say 2016.


By the way Boomstick,what factors are contributing towards this Mad Max style breakdown-if society should get like the first two films and would the government restore our banned weapons,after 2020?

 

[FireBreather01]

I'm not sure if the murder rate is a reliable indicator of disarming a society. I would think a much more reliable indicator would be armed-robbery, home-invasions, assault, and the like. With the thuggery thus emboldened by a lack of ability to respond with deadly force, it seems to me that such events would be much more representative of a disarmed society.

 

[Sheldon J]

Quote:
that high crime in England has little to do with the gun ban, I quite agree. The number of guns in society has no casual effect on crime. BUT, If this is true, then one cannot use England as a justification model for what America should do either. A ban in England didn't make crime go up there, but a ban in America can hardly be expected to make crime go down here. It works both ways.

Quote:
Despite how much the pro-gun community loves John Lott, and Gary Kleck, I don't think they've truly proven "More Guns, Less Crime"…. However, what they, and even the CDC have definitively proven is: Statistically, more guns do NOT mean more crime, NOR does less guns mean less crime, either.

+1. Although I’m expecting an avalanche of post saying guns prevent crime.

Sorry old boy but all it takes is one THE TRUTH according to all our statistics, about your and ours only our most large N violent cities are higher. These cities by the way have some of the most stringent gun control laws on the books ones to even make the Draconian laws of UK, Canada, and Australia look timid by comparison.

There are the area’s of our Great land that have problems, the highest crime rates and most stringent gun control measures go hand in hand, as in none allowed in civilian hands, NY, DC, LA, combine this with the fact that all have pockets… cesspools of people who actually are the problem, many with an population density so intense that a small patch of an green lawn looks like a country garden.

Where dose this come from? Illegal immigration a very large part of any crime increases that you may see are a major contributor to this escalating issue… the worst of this comes from south of the boarder. Hoards of humanity cross over unchecked literally by the Millions yearly, not all of these people are criminals but a heap of them are, some of these are your own unwanted rejected countrymen.

Read John Lotts book, read Wayne LaPierre’s books these tombs of fact are stacked with statistics that are documented fact, truisms backed by studies by our own federal government, and not fallacies generated by a self gratifying Ministry of propaganda.

Guns make us free citizens, lack of guns make us subjects of tyranny. Look at world history and every confiscation scheme has been followed by a Totalitarian Dictatorship resulting in the massive loss of human life, if you wish to go into harms way unarmed it is your right, but do not make pretense to preach to me of how your way is better, it has been said he who dose not study history will be doomed to repeat it. I have studied history and in it seen the truth.

 

[mljdeckard]

I lived several years in Europe, mostly Germany and Scandinavia, and I made friends with many people who were not only supportive of our RKBA, but jealous. And I have welcomed a few of them over here to shoot and hunt with me.

A few of them rhapsodized about moving here, but I poured some water on their fire. First, as has been pointed out, it takes more than a smile. The political and beurocratic process alone is enough to make most applicants give up. (One of them was a wealthy successful doctor, and even HE didn't have the clout and wherewithal to tough it out and come over here.) I also point out to them that most of Europe enjoys a state of entitlement that we would never allow, and compared to what they are used to, living over here would kind of feel like working without a net. So far, all of them have fallen back to the Vulcan philosophy: "To have a thing is not so good as to want. It is illogical, but often true." They get a taste of life over here, and they like it, but not enough for them to pull up the stakes, sell the generously subsidized farm, and make it permanent.

 

[igor]

Fosbery, you'd probably be most welcome here in Finland, but we don't have CCW here aside for OC gas with established need. OTOH, there's no need either.
You might find the language a bigger hurdle .

 

[Boom-stick]

By the way Boomstick,what factors are contributing towards this Mad Max style breakdown-if society should get like the first two films and would the government restore our banned weapons,after 2020?

I don't know what factors are contributing towards this break-down, but where I live, if see you the youths riding around in packs on mopeds kicking in car doors and smashing windows for fun, it sometime doesn't feel like we're that far away from Ol' mad max now.

& I haven't got a clue if we'd get guns after the breakdown of society or if there would be anyone left to give them to us...

There's a number of members of this very forum preparing for when the SHTF, which probably gives an indication (somehow) of how many people are preparing world-wide, and if the citezens are preparing for it to happen why shouldn't the govenments? even if they are going about it the wrong way.


On a sligtly different note,
I do know that lever action carbines and section 1 shotguns were supposed to be included in the 1997 amendments to firearms act and were only left out by accident, therefore avoiding the ban.

 

[sterling180]

On a sligtly different note,
I do know that lever action carbines and section 1 shotguns were supposed to be included in the 1997 amendments to firearms act and were only left out by accident, therefore avoiding the ban.

I think that it was only handguns that the government were targeting,after Dunblane,because there was pressure from the GCN and from Labour,to ban them completely.,(Labour did this,to further their election campaign,for their victory in 1997-and alot of Scots voted for them anyway.)In saying this,section 1 and section 2 repeating shotguns,were spared because of hunting purposes as well as lever-actions and .22 semis-because they were useful,for the same reasons.

I think that the Cat O nine tails would be good for yobbish youths,riding mopeds and a steel ruler round their nuckles too. Or Thomas Hamiltons punishments,involving beatings with iron rods and fists. Or put them in Bad lads army, aka National Service-so that they can serve their country-positively.

By the way,do you live near Brixton or Millwall FC,because after seeing how thuggish their fans were,after a football match,I would have considered a .38 2" revolver,to ward off those facist morons.I remember them in Welling in 1993,during the Welling riots, and I was tempted to nick a pistol from Gentry's-to ward them off as well as the anti-Nazi league members.

 

[Richard.Howe]

Does anyone have the link to a picture of a British WW2 poster asking for the Allies to ship them privately-owned guns? Vague memory, so maybe I dreamed it...