Must be 21 to buy pistol-grip shotgun?

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Gun dealer to plead in Trolley Square gun case
By Geoffrey Fattah
Deseret Morning News
Published: November 20, 2007
The West Valley gun dealer accused of selling the shotgun used in the Trolley Square massacre has reached a plea agreement with federal prosecutors.
Court documents filed Monday show that 39-year-old Westley Wayne Hill has requested a change of plea hearing on Nov. 26.

Hill is accused of selling a Maverick Arms Model 88 12-gauge shotgun to then 18-year-old Sulejman Talovic on Nov. 13, 2006. On Feb. 12, 2007, Talovic walked into the Trolley Square mall, armed with the shotgun and a handgun, and killed five people and wounded four others before perishing in a shootout with police.

News of the pending agreement comes after a federal judge was considering whether to throw out the charge against Hill. Through his attorney, Hill claims the charge of selling a firearm to an unauthorized person should be dropped because federal gun laws are too vague.

Federal prosecutors had argued that because the shotgun was equipped with a pistol grip, it made it illegal for Hill to sell the shotgun to anyone under 21.
Hill was scheduled to stand trial on Nov. 26.

If Hill pleads guilty to a reduced charge, he will be the last to do so of the four men charged with selling firearms to Talovic.

Three men, Mackenzie Hunter, Brenden Taylor Brown and Matthew Hautala, were charged with selling a .38 special handgun to Talovic for $800. All three men have pleaded guilty as part of their own plea agreements. Brown and Hautala were both sentenced to one year probation. Hunter is scheduled to be sentenced Jan. 14.

Federal prosecutors say the handgun came from a young Idaho man, who stole the gun from his father to trade for drugs.

http://deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695229385,00.html
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I try to keep up on this kind of stuff but I don't recall any federal age differentiation to buy shotguns based on stock configuration. I just cruised through 18 USC 922 and didn't see anything there but then I may well have missed an applicable clause in that mess. Will someone point me to the appropriate code, please?
 
far as i know the pistol grip is not the actual gun, it can be bought without ANY age checks... if it is actually attached to the gun, you have to follow the law for shotguns, which in most states is 18
 
I've never been clear on the exact ATF reasoning behind the decision, but as I understand it, selling a PG-equipped shotgun to someone under 21 is illegal. If you sell them the shotgun with both a standard stock and a PG, it's legal. If it comes with just PG, you can't do it. If they buy a standard stocked shotgun, and then a PG seperately, fine. Dunno if the shotgun has to be transferred while physically equipped with the shoulder stock, but wouldn't surprise me.
 
Its because a "shotgun" under current federal law is designed to be fired from the shoulder. A 12ga with a pistol grip is only a "firearm" as its not designed to be fired from the shoulder, which requires you be 21 to purchase (anything other than a "rifle" or "shotgun" requires you be 21).

Kharn
 
For what it's worth: In 1990 I was 19 and wanted to buy a mos. 500a w/ a factory pistol grip from the Glenwood Gun Shop in Glenwood, IL. They told me they would sell it to me but had to put the full stock on it as with the grip thus installed we would both be in violation of the law. They put the long stock on, a factory synthetic, but of course provided me with the pistol grip as it was merely a part anyone regardless of age or anything else could buy. As I was young, they further cautioned me NOT to install the grip until I reached 21 years of age. Some years later, a couple of those guys were killed in a robbery of their store. Not that that matters in any way--but I would feel bad to not mention that.

I know it seems a petty thing--what stock on a shotgun--but it may not be when you get into things and consider that AOW status that might be granted for a shotgun lawfully converted to short barrel with ATF approval. Does it have bearing on this--maybe.
 
El Tejon:
A reminder about the pistol-gripped-12ga's status as a "firearm" was in an ATF FFL newsletter a while back, but within the last two years. I think you can find those on their website.

Kharn
 
Another BATFE Mess

This one comes around about once a year. Here's the minimalist version:

An FFL can sell a Long Gun, Rifle or Shotgun, to an otherwise eligible person at age 18. (I'm NOT addressing any State Laws here, too much trouble...)

An FFL can ONLY sell/deliver a Handgun to an otherwise eligible person at least 21 years of age.

Now for the fun part:

A Shotgun, equipped with a Pistol Grip ONLY, does NOT meet the Federal definition of Shotgun. A Shotgun must be 'Designed or Redesigned to be fired from the shoulder.'

So, what is a Pistol Grip Shotgun? It must be a pistol. WAIT A MINUTE, it's a Smoothbore and Pistols (and Revolvers) must have Rifled bores.

So, a Pistol Grip ONLY Shotgun is an enigma that doesn't fit the rest of the rules. That makes it merely a Firearm but not any particular category. This messes with lots of other laws which expect a further classification beyond just Firearm.

So, the BATFE, to avoid having to answer to WHY they have allowed this Non-Categorizable weapon to be sold all these years just changed the rules back in the late 80s, or early 90s to require that purchasers be at least 21 years of age, just like handgun purchasers and let it go without further explanation.

Simple, No?

Futuristic
 
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_921.html

(29) The term "handgun" means -
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be
held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in
subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned,
made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and
designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an
explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball
shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


Futuristic is right. He is being charged with a crime that doesn't exist.
 
Yeah, and within that BS is the loophole that allows companies such as mine to produce AOW's using smooth-bore recievers which left the original factory with a pistol-grip only, as opposed to a full-length stock.

Recievers which leave the factory with a stock are shotguns, and can therefore only be registered as Short-Barrel Shotguns.

Recievers which leave with just a pistol grip, or as bare recievers, are smooth-bore handguns. The crazy part is they aren't considered AOW's until someone such as myself fills out a Form 2, or a non-licensee fills out a Form 1 and pays the taxes. Before the serial number is added to the registry, they must be transferred as handguns, but not as AOW's.

Confused yet?
 
If one reads the definition of AOW a smooth bore handgun is perfectly fine as long as it isn't meant to shoot shotgun shells...just to add one more thing to the mix.
 
I purchased my 12ga Mossberg 500 Persuader 8-shot with only pistol grip three days after my 18th birthday. Welcome to Texas.
 
I purchased my 12ga Mossberg 500 Persuader 8-shot with only pistol grip three days after my 18th birthday. Welcome to Texas.
Click to expand...

The buyer in the original post bought his between his 18th and 19th birthdays, and the dealer is facing Federal charges. Those Federal charges don't care about State borders. Your dealer could just as easily be facing the same charges. Just because you got it from him because he was unaware of one of the stupidest laws on the books doesn't mean it was legal.
 
If you want real confusion, try being the salesman trying to figure out whether to put it down as a handgun or a longgun on the 4473 and the call-in. I know from experience that the technicians who do the background checks don't have any idea whether a PG shotty is a longgun or a handgun.

I can't find any explicit mention of it on the ATF website, but Futuristic explained it better than ATF probably could anyhow. The whole subject isn't that surprising: it's the inevitable result of careless wording in ancient legislation-ATF just has the duty of interpreting everything literally. And when something high-profile occurs like the Trolley Square incident, people start digging for dirt so there can be a scapegoat. It's one of those arcane little regulations that many people don't know about and which rarely come up..except when it does, in which case you're screwed.
 
Well, there's a really simple solution to this, then.

Make firearms all the same in the view of the law, and make 18 the age to buy/carry/use them. Ta-da, no more confusion.

I can dream.
 
It has to have though an 18 inch barrel AND a 26 inch or more overall length.

Thus it is not a concealable weapon under the NFA.
 
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