Must be 21 to buy pistol-grip shotgun?

[Working Man]

Its because a "shotgun" under current federal law is designed to be fired from the shoulder. A 12ga with a pistol grip is only a "firearm" as its not designed to be fired from the shoulder, which requires you be 21 to purchase (anything other than a "rifle" or "shotgun" requires you be 21).

I was under 21 when I bought my Winchester Defender 20ga with a pistol grip
from Oshman's in the mid 90s. I wonder how many places are selling them to
under 21 still.

 

[crazed_ss]

One of the local stores here has a sign informing customers that they cant sell pistol grip only shotgun to people under 21.. It's a fairly new thing that they seem to be enforcing.

 

[Car Knocker]

Well, I learned something new. Thanks.

 

[Bad Company]

It has to have though an 18 inch barrel AND a 26 inch or more overall length.

Thus it is not a concealable weapon under the NFA.

is that a shotgun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

 

[BlazingAngel01]

that happened to me i tried to get one for home defense and i couldn't so to make up for it i got a ar-15 and us my pistol for home defense

 

[ilbob]

I read somewhere fairly recently that it is legal to own a conversion cylinder to make a BP revolver shoot CF cartridges, but that an FFL cannot provide them at the same time to the same purchaser.

Apparently neither is a firearm under federal law, but if sold together they are, even if not assembled.

There are probably many other anomalies in the laws.

 

[GRB]

Federal prosecutors had argued that because the shotgun was equipped with a pistol grip, it made it illegal for Hill to sell the shotgun to anyone under 21.

You are putting an awful lot of faith in what the media said about why this guy was charged. I would rather put my faith in the charging documents.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[scout26]

You are still missing the point. Once the FFL sold him the shotugn, he also told him "It's a nice day, here's some ammo, why don't you go shoot up a mall with it to try it out ???" [/SARCASM]

 

[LickitySplit]

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/caseco...ction_921.html

(29) The term "handgun" means -
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be
held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in
subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

Isn't this why a handgun with a forward grip is classified as an AOW?

(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned,
made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and
designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an
explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball
shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

What if the shotgun has a pistol grip and folding stock?

I'm guessing it would meet the definition, but with the ATF involved I wouldn't be that certain.

 

[CleverNickname]

Not that I like it, but it appears to me that the BATFE is correctly following the law.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Emphasis mine. It's not that someone has to be over 21 to buy/receive a handgun from an FFL, it's that someone has to be over 21 to buy/receive a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle from an FFL. Now all we have to do is find the definition of a shotgun.

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

A pistol-grip-only shotgun is a "shotgun" in general parlance but it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun in federal law, because it does not have a shoulder stock. The lack of a shoulder stock means that it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder.

The only thing that's not obvious to me is if someone between 18 and 21 could buy a shotgun from an FFL and then later legally convert it to pistol-grip-only before they turn 21.

 

[Ron James]

The way the Feds and in fact all district attorneys work is simply. Even if you are innocent, you are so beat down with the legal system and legal fees ( into the 10s of thousands ) that if they offer a plea of no jail time, drop to a misdemeanor and probation you will jump at the chance. You do not have to be guilty to be punished.

 

[nwilliams]

My first shotgun was a Mossberg 590 with pistol grips front and rear. I got that when I turned 18 back in the early 90's from a gun shop where I lived in Maine.

 

[hand_loader]

I fully agree with ron james I have been on probation for 6 months now because of a charge of carrying a loaded weapon. I live in Va and as far as I understand here you can not carry an semi-auto pistol with a rd in the chamber with out a concealed permit or you can be arrested. (I had the weapon in a holster on my belt right side walking down the street when the officer came up to me and ask "Is that a weapon on your hip son" I answered yes and he said that I was under arrest for possession of a deadly weapon. I don't understand how he could get away with that I thought we had the right to keep and bear arms. Can anyone tell me if there was anything I could have done. PS the gun was a S&W99 40cal. :banghead:

 

[novaDAK]

wow I didn't know this was such a big issue. Never even thought about it before. Though it really doesn't even matter because I just bought a Mossberg with a full stock and can just swap it out for a pistol grip anytime I want.

Maybe this is why Mossberg sells some shotguns with both the pistol grip AND stock in the box.

now, just to add to the confusion, what about removing the stock and just having a pistol grip on a full-length rifle (like an AK)? since it has a rifled barrel would it be considered a rifle or a super long barreled pistol? (I know AK pistols are "handguns.")

 

[OEF_VET]

The AK would transfer on a 4473 as a rifle. Once you own it, you can cut off the stock if you wish, as long as the barrel length exceeds 16" and the overall length exceeds 26". Your AK will always remain a rifle.

(A weapon that starts out as a rifle will always be a rifle. A shotgun will always remain a shotgun. A smooth-bore AOW isn't a shotgun, as it must not have ever had a stock, therefore not shoulder-fired. A pistol, on other hand, can go from pistol to rifle, then back to pistol, at will.)

 

[novaDAK]

ok that's what I thought...thanks

 

[Hkmp5sd]

It has been around for quite a while now....

Here is where the "21 vs. Pistol Grip Shotgun" originated:

August 1998 ATF FFL Newletter Volume 1.

and here is some follow-up information:

February 1999 ATF FFL Newletter Volume 1.

 

[ilbob]

I fully agree with ron james I have been on probation for 6 months now because of a charge of carrying a loaded weapon. I live in Va and as far as I understand here you can not carry an semi-auto pistol with a rd in the chamber with out a concealed permit or you can be arrested. (I had the weapon in a holster on my belt right side walking down the street when the officer came up to me and ask "Is that a weapon on your hip son" I answered yes and he said that I was under arrest for possession of a deadly weapon. I don't understand how he could get away with that I thought we had the right to keep and bear arms. Can anyone tell me if there was anything I could have done. PS the gun was a S&W99 40cal.

Get a better lawyer. It is hard to tell you much more than that.

 

[Orthonym]

OEF_VET, the information inside your parentheses makes my eyes glaze over, as does some of the information above, and I fancy myself as something of an aspie geek, who's into getting involved in complex systems of rules.

I think I just can't get my self involved in complex systems of rules promulgated by people whose guts I passionately hate, which rules don't make the least bit of sense in the first place, are not internally consistent, are not taken seriously by their enforcers except arbitrarily when they want to get over on people because they, uh, feel like it, uh, no,

Officer Safety! That's it!

etc....

 

[AnthonyC.]

I don't know if anyone has said anything about ar-15s, dont all of them have pistol grips? and they are considerd rifles? Thus can be sold to people 18 and over? whats the differance between a pistol grip on a shotgun and on an ar-15?

I think the stupid thing here is that A PISTOL GRIP DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOTGUN MORE DANGEROUS!!!!!!!:banghead:

OMG this is really pissing me off

 

[Orthonym]

Ah, Anthony?

Please see what I wrote just above (or just below, these remarks being presented blogstyle).

e.g. "...which rules don't make the least bit of sense in the first place, are not internally consistent, are not taken seriously by their enforcers except arbitrarily when they want to get over on people..."

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I think the stupid thing here is that A PISTOL GRIP DOES NOT MAKE THE SHOTGUN MORE DANGEROUS!!!!!!!

It is the pistol grip shotgun without an attached shoulder stock that ATF is talking about. Their logic is that since in cannot be fired from the shoulder, it does not meet the definition of a shotgun. Has nothing to do with shotgun vs. rifle dangerousness.

 

[AnthonyC.]

O I am very sorry for the confusion, I thought they were talking about a "turkey gun" with full stock and pistol grip but I see where they have a point with out having a full stock on it...