my 1st. Classic S&W What did I buy?

[Mark_Mark]

Nice Smith mark! I’m not usually one to recommend not shooting a gun (too much) but With the cost of a police trade in model 10, I would consider buying another to shoot the snot out of. I told you about the one I got for 350 last month, some holster wear but almost zero turn line. Keep at it. I’m fling into Seattle next week. I may have to send you a pm for the name of your secret shop

PM Sent! lol

 

[Mark_Mark]

Maybe pick a shooter grade pre-lock Model 10 to shoot the snot out of. You could get one for the price of a ThunderstruckI've got a couple of Model 10 trade ins I shoot regularly and delegate my pristine Model 15-2 Combat Masterpiece to occasional range trips. I bought two for $336/each and a Model 64 for $300 OTD a couple years ago. They get shot more than any other revolvers I own.

That Thundersuck! dang! Man! Ouch! lol!

15-2 Masterpiece another not cheap gun!

 

[Tallball]

Yeah, if you can buy a Model 10 with worn finish that functions well for cheap, just do that. Its trigger will doubtless be better due to use.

I have zero "safe queens", but I wouldn't shoot that one. Save it for a rainy day when you can't afford a surgery or something.

Again, this is not like me at all, but if you shoot it a few times and get a little bit of a turn line and maybe a little ding on the barrel, you may have just lost as much value as a "beater" would have cost you to buy and shoot instead.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

've read that starting in the 1950s Smith trigger
and hammers were stamped parts, not machined
from solid bars. This would be true of the
Model 17-3 shown by Driftwood Johnson.

If you look at the rear of a trigger from that era, you will see horizontal tooling marks across the rear of the trigger. Those marks look to me to be the result of stamping. On the left in this photo is the MIM trigger from the Model 617-8. On the right is the trigger from the Model 17-3 that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975.






Here are the two triggers viewed from the front.






Clearly, stamping was not the final process in making a trigger, they were machined to final profile after being stamped, but I suspect the parts started as stampings. The same with hammers of the same era. The horizontal marks on those hammers are mostly visible on surfaces not visible when the revolver is assembled.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I have a set of Lee dies in 32-20. You just could not get carbide ones for the bottleneck brass, so lube is necessary. I use Starline brass and bought plenty a few years ago before the covid shutdowns. I have a good stock of lead bullets which in normal times were easy to find from most companies and small pistol primers which work fine in place of rifle primers in my revolver. Several companies still make single actions in 32-20 Winchester so I hope brass will be back in stock at Starline soon. My gun is a Colt Army Special double action revolver.

There are no carbide dies for any bottleneck cases. 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, 25-20, you name it. The reason is the carbide in a carbide sizing die is in the form of a disk with a hole in it. Kind of like a fat washer. The hole in the carbide disk has been bored cylindrically through the disk, and it is a constant diameter. So straight cases, such as 45 Colt or 38 Special can be run through the carbide disk and will be resized a constant diameter. The hole in the carbide disk is highly polished, that is why no case lube is required when sizing with carbide dies, the smoothness of the hole will prevent a case from getting stuck.

With conventional dies (non carbide) the profile inside the sizing die squeezes the case to final shape. So a sizing die for a case such as 44-40 (or 38-40, 32-20, or 25-20) resizes the case to the correct size. Because the inside profile of a conventional sizing die is not as highly polished as a carbide die, case lube must (usually) be used when resizing cases. I say usually because I have fouind that Starline 44-40 brass is so close to resized dimensions that I do not need to use case lube when first sizing to shape, the die barely touches the brass. But after one firing, I always use case lube when resizing 44-40 or 38-40.

The reason most of these bottle neck cases are easily damged when sizing them is because the brass at the case mouth is very thin. About .007 thick on average. Compared to about .012 thick for 45 Colt at the case mouth. This means that the case mouth of any bottle neck brass not perfectly seated in the shell holder or shell plate may strike the bottom of the die as it rises to meet the die. The thicker brass of 45 Colt will generally shrug off such a blow, but the thin case mouth of a bottle neck case will most likely be crushed. I never say 44-40 is difficult to reload, but it is fussy. I always slow down when reloading 44-40 (or 38-40), so I can feel it in the handle if a case mouth strikes the bottom surface of the die. That way I can ease up on the handle before the case mouth gets crushed.

 

[SWMAN]

I inherited a Model 1905, 4th change, 5 inch barrel from my dad. Manufactured in 1946 so says the letter I got from S&W. Has some wear on it, but otherwise in good shape. I haven't fired it in a while. It's harder to shoot accurately than my Ruger Service Six with .38s. Yours is in very nice condition. May not want to shoot it.

 

[Mark_Mark]

could someone explain “Registered Magnum” name?

Read the name is registered to the owner or serial number, something like that

would love to get a shooter grade, and wear that bad boy. My dealer told me how he acquired his RM in Alaska for $1200 10 years ago. He worked for the original owner and has all the paper work. The RM he has was a working gun

 

[Mark_Mark]

I inherited a Model 1905, 4th change, 5 inch barrel from my dad. Manufactured in 1946 so says the letter I got from S&W. Has some wear on it, but otherwise in good shape. I haven't fired it in a while. It's harder to shoot accurately than my Ruger Service Six with .38s. Yours is in very nice condition. May not want to shoot it.

it’s a sweet 1st Change 1905 32-20. I have not bought that one yet, if I do get it, it definitely will be a shooter! just need to fund a matching Winchester too!

 

[Mark_Mark]

If you look at the rear of a trigger from that era, you will see horizontal tooling marks across the rear of the trigger. Those marks look to me to be the result of stamping. On the left in this photo is the MIM trigger from the Model 617-8. On the right is the trigger from the Model 17-3 that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975.

View attachment 1143277




Here are the two triggers viewed from the front.

View attachment 1143278




Clearly, stamping was not the final process in making a trigger, they were machined to final profile after being stamped, but I suspect the parts started as stampings. The same with hammers of the same era. The horizontal marks on those hammers are mostly visible on surfaces not visible when the revolver is assembled.

tell you what, you S&W guys are a different breed! I like it

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Big Question… Do all N Frame look like the Register Magnum frame? I love the look of that RM gun

Kind of putting the cart in front of the horse.

Smith and Wesson developed the N frame for the 44 Hand Ejector, 1st Model, popularly known as the Triple Lock, in 1908. Their first large frame revolver with a cylinder that swung out to the side. Similar, but larger than the K frame, which had been developed in 1899, just bigger. Chambered mostly for their brand new 44 Smith and Wesson Special cartridge. 44 Special to the rest of the world. This is a very early Triple Lock, the serial number is less than 200, it shipped in 1907. Very worn, but it still locks up tight. Notice the caliber making says 44 S&W CTG. Later they all said 44 S&W SPECIAL CTG. Again, CTG is just an abbreviation for cartridge. Notice there is no rib on top of the barrel, not even with the adjustable sighted target models. I'm not going to go into a detailed description of the Triple Lock here, that is for another discussion.






The 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model, did away with the third latch and the lug under the barrel. Still no barrel rib.






The S&W Model 1917 was basically a 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model, but it was chambered for 45 ACP.






The 44 HE 3rd Model brought the under lug back by popular demand.






The 38-44 revolvers were the direct ancestors to the Registered Magnums and the later N frame 357 Magnums and the Models 27 and 28. Developed for a special high velocity 38 Special cartridge, S&W knew at the time the metallurgy of a K frame was not up to the increased pressure of the high velocity 38s. So they built the new revolver on the larger N frame, with lots of steel surrounding the chambers. Because the N frames had mostly been used for 44 caliber cartridges, the 38-44 revolvers were so named because they were chambered for 38 Special, but built on the large N frame usually used for 44 caliber revolvers. This one is a 38-44 Outdoorsman. Note the adjustable rear sight. The fixed sight version was the 38-44 Heavy Duty. Still no barrel rib.






The idea behind the 357 Mag was the cartridge case was about 1/10 inch or so longer than a 38 Special, so it could not be chambered in a standard 38 Special revolver. As I said before, I do not have a Registered Magnum to post a photo of. Cannot fine one I can afford. So this photo of my Model 27 will have to do. Yes, the box says The 357 Magnum, S&W never throws anything away. This is a Model 27. Finally a rib on top of the barrel, just like on the Registered Magnums.






Yes, here is a photo of the checkering on the top strap and barrel rib of my Model 27. Right next to it is a Model 28 (Highway Patrolman) , the slightly lower cost version. No checkering on top of the Model 28.





Let's see if all these photos come through.

 

[Mark_Mark]

If you look at the rear of a trigger from that era, you will see horizontal tooling marks across the rear of the trigger. Those marks look to me to be the result of stamping. On the left in this photo is the MIM trigger from the Model 617-8. On the right is the trigger from the Model 17-3 that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975.

View attachment 1143277




Here are the two triggers viewed from the front.

View attachment 1143278




Clearly, stamping was not the final process in making a trigger, they were machined to final profile after being stamped, but I suspect the parts started as stampings. The same with hammers of the same era. The horizontal marks on those hammers are mostly visible on surfaces not visible when the revolver is assembled.

I mean… has a S&W MIM part really broken that much? If it’s a good quality MIM and case harden. I see nothing with it

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

could someone explain “Registered Magnum” name?

Read the name is registered to the owner or serial number, something like that

would love to get a shooter grade, and wear that bad boy. My dealer told me how he acquired his RM in Alaska for $1200 10 years ago. He worked for the original owner and has all the paper work. The RM he has was a working gun

I already explained that, but I will go into more detail.

In the 1930s law enforcement agencies were looking for a more powerful cartridge that could pierce automobile bodies that the new breed of criminals were using. Smith and Wesson developed a new, higher velocity 38 Special cartridge to fit the bill. This cartridge developed higher pressure, enough that might damage a conventional K frame 38. So Smith turned to the larger N frame, with its larger diameter cylinder that could take the pressure of the new, higher velocity cartridge. Since the N frames had largely been used for 44 caliber cartridges, the new revolvers were called 38-44; 38 for the 38 Special chambering, 44 for the size of the frame. The 38-44 Heavy Duty was the fixed sight version, introduced in 1930.

This is a 38-44 Heavy Duty revolver. It shipped in 1931.






This is a 38-44 Outdoorsman. Note the adjustable rear sight. It shipped in 1933.






The problem remained that a shooter might inadvertently load the high velocity 38s into a conventional K frame revolver, possibly causing damage. So in 1935 Smith and Wesson introduced the 357 Magnum cartridge, developed by Winchester. The case of the new cartridge was about 1/10" longer than a conventional 38 Special, so it could not be loaded into a conventional 38 Special revolver. By the way, Douglas Wesson, grandson of Daniel Wesson and a chief promoter of the new cartridge was a wine connoisseur, hence the name magnum, which means a really big bottle of wine in the wine world.

The new revolver, with its longer chambers, was introduced with the new cartridge in 1935. Built on the large N frame like the 38-44 revolvers, it was simply called The 357 Magnum revolver at the time. Nothing fancier than that. However, S&W thought it would be a clever marketing idea to register the new revolvers to their owners. This was an in house program, nothing to do with law enforcement.

When S&W was developing the new revolver they did not anticipate a large amount of sales, this was the height of the Great Depression after all. The new revolvers were the top of the line, costing $60, $15 more than anything else in the catalog at the time. I'm talking 1935 dollars here. So the first 357 Magnum revolvers were the Registered Magnums. A factory certificate was given to the owner, noting the registration number which was stamped on the frame. The checkering on the top of the top strap and barrel rib were meant to reduce glare. The new revolvers were all custom built, the customer had his choice of barrel lengths from 3 1/2" to 8 3/4". There were seven different front sights available, with matching rear sights, any style of service grips or Magna grips, with or without grip adapter. The factory sighted the revolvers in with the customer's choice of ammunition at any distance up to two hundred meters. As I said, each owner's certificate listed his registration number as well as all the special features of his revolver.

Even though this was the height of the Great Depression, sales far exceeded what S&W anticipated. Factory capacity at the time was about 120 Registered Magnums per month. After producing about 5,500 Registered Magnums the Registered Magnum program was discontinued in 1938. The revolver continued to be called The 357 Magnum until 1957 when it became the Model 27.

Good luck finding a 'shooter grade' Registered Magnum. As I said, they were all custom revolvers, and are all expensive. I looked at a beat up Registered Magnum a few years ago. It was very beat up, but still cost more than I wanted to pay.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I mean… has a S&W MIM part really broken that much? If it’s a good quality MIM and case harden. I see nothing with it

Metal Injection Molding (MIM) is similar to sintering. Finely powdered metal is mixed with a binder to create a "feedstock". The feedstock is injected into a mold not too different than the way plastic is injection molded. In the mold the material is heated to just below the melting point, but the metal is not melted. The fine particles of metal are attracted to each other, and bind, creating the part. After the part leaves the injection molding equipment it is heated and the remaining binder is driven off, making the final part, which has shrunk slightly. The parts are always designed on 3D CAD, so the shrinkage can be taken into account.

MIM parts cannot be Case Hardened. Case Hardening does not make parts stronger anyway, it is just a surface hardening treatment. S&W uses a chemical treatment to darken their MIM hammers and triggers to resemble their traditional Case Hardening, but they are not Case Hardened.

I spoke with an engineer at S&W years ago. He told me they had done extensive research to make sure that MIM parts were strong enough for their purposes. Note, it is only some of the internal parts that are MIM parts, mostly the lockwork. Not the frames, barrels, or cylinders.

The other advantage of MIM is the parts often do not need any secondary machining, they often pop out of the mold fully formed, and do not need any hand fitting.

Here is a photo of two Rebound Slides. The one on the left is a MIM part, the one on the right is a conventional machined part. Notice the pins that protrude from the side. In the MIM part the pin is an integral detail of the part. In the machined part, the pin is a separate part, pressed into the slide in a separate operation. Time is money, and it costs more to make a part that needs extra operations to complete it.

 

[Mosin77]

I wouldn’t shoot it if it’s that pristine. I’d keep it for a few years because it seems like these are becoming quite a bit more desirable. If it’s worth comfortably more I’d decide then whether to keep for a few more years or sell (repeat as necessary.) I’d buy one that’s nice but not absolutely perfect new-in-box to use as my shooter.

But then again I’m Welsh and we’re tightwads by nature.

 

[stonebuster]

That Thundersuck! dang! Man! Ouch! lol!

15-2 Masterpiece another not cheap gun!

You might be surprised they might not be as expensive as you think. I found my '65 15-2 sitting on my LGS's shelf with a $650 tag on it. I bartered it down to $300 and a can of 1953 surplus 30 cal. carbine ammo I had no use for(inherited). I still see them on GB reasonably priced sometimes.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I already explained that, but I will go into more detail.

In the 1930s law enforcement agencies were looking for a more powerful cartridge that could pierce automobile bodies that the new breed of criminals were using. Smith and Wesson developed a new, higher velocity 38 Special cartridge to fit the bill. This cartridge developed higher pressure, enough that might damage a conventional K frame 38. So Smith turned to the larger N frame, with its larger diameter cylinder that could take the pressure of the new, higher velocity cartridge. Since the N frames had largely been used for 44 caliber cartridges, the new revolvers were called 38-44; 38 for the 38 Special chambering, 44 for the size of the frame. The 38-44 Heavy Duty was the fixed sight version, introduced in 1930.

This is a 38-44 Heavy Duty revolver. It shipped in 1931.

View attachment 1143293




This is a 38-44 Outdoorsman. Note the adjustable rear sight. It shipped in 1933.

View attachment 1143294




The problem remained that a shooter might inadvertently load the high velocity 38s into a conventional K frame revolver, possibly causing damage. So in 1935 Smith and Wesson introduced the 357 Magnum cartridge, developed by Winchester. The case of the new cartridge was about 1/10" longer than a conventional 38 Special, so it could not be loaded into a conventional 38 Special revolver. By the way, Douglas Wesson, grandson of Daniel Wesson and a chief promoter of the new cartridge was a wine connoisseur, hence the name magnum, which means a really big bottle of wine in the wine world.

The new revolver, with its longer chambers, was introduced with the new cartridge in 1935. Built on the large N frame like the 38-44 revolvers, it was simply called The 357 Magnum revolver at the time. Nothing fancier than that. However, S&W thought it would be a clever marketing idea to register the new revolvers to their owners. This was an in house program, nothing to do with law enforcement.

When S&W was developing the new revolver they did not anticipate a large amount of sales, this was the height of the Great Depression after all. The new revolvers were the top of the line, costing $60, $15 more than anything else in the catalog at the time. I'm talking 1935 dollars here. So the first 357 Magnum revolvers were the Registered Magnums. A factory certificate was given to the owner, noting the registration number which was stamped on the frame. The checkering on the top of the top strap and barrel rib were meant to reduce glare. The new revolvers were all custom built, the customer had his choice of barrel lengths from 3 1/2" to 8 3/4". There were seven different front sights available, with matching rear sights, any style of service grips or Magna grips, with or without grip adapter. The factory sighted the revolvers in with the customer's choice of ammunition at any distance up to two hundred meters. As I said, each owner's certificate listed his registration number as well as all the special features of his revolver.

Even though this was the height of the Great Depression, sales far exceeded what S&W anticipated. Factory capacity at the time was about 120 Registered Magnums per month. After producing about 5,500 Registered Magnums the Registered Magnum program was discontinued in 1938. The revolver continued to be called The 357 Magnum until 1957 when it became the Model 27.

Good luck finding a 'shooter grade' Registered Magnum. As I said, they were all custom revolvers, and are all expensive. I looked at a beat up Registered Magnum a few years ago. It was very beat up, but still cost more than I wanted to pay.

thanks for that! Now I know

 

[Mark_Mark]

You might be surprised they might not be as expensive as you think. I found my '65 15-2 sitting on my LGS's shelf with a $650 tag on it. I bartered it down to $300 and a can of 1953 surplus 30 cal. carbine ammo I had no use for(inherited). I still see them on GB reasonably priced sometimes.View attachment 1143302

I wish I knew how to barter! Pretty much “No” and I stop asking. that being said, Dealer/Collectors guy knows what I want and saves a few guns for me to look at. I could not believe it when he brought out a tray for me to look at before it hit the floor.

 

[stonebuster]

I wish I knew how to barter! Pretty much “No” and I stop asking. that being said, Dealer/Collectors guy knows what I want and saves a few guns for me to look at. I could not believe it when he brought out a tray for me to look at before it hit the floor.

You're lucky, if I had a dealer like that I'd probably need another safe. Not really a barterer either. I went in to try to sell the ammo & while he was deciding I spotted the 15-2. Dealers like yours are few and far between in these parts.

 

[Mark_Mark]

just got my book in! reading time! see you people (they/them) in a few

 

[Mark_Mark]

 

[Mark_Mark]

prices have changes since this bool was published

 

[Mark_Mark]

You're lucky, if I had a dealer like that I'd probably need another safe. Not really a barterer either. I went in to try to sell the ammo & while he was deciding I spotted the 15-2. Dealers like yours are few and far between in these parts.

Yes they are! I believe the shops been in the family for 2-3 generations (Seattle don’t go that far back) the owner/collectors keeps some of his collectors of ammo and guns on display there.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Your SCSW was published in 2016. Seven years ago. Prices are always fluid. The SCSW is the best guide there is to a general history of S&W, model numbers and dashes, and generally all things Smith and Wesson. It is not an accurate representation of current prices. When I am searching through my copy for information about S&W, I never look at the suggested prices. If you want to know current prices go to Gun Broker and look up the price stuff sold for, not the prices being asked.

Regarding the Model 15; this is a K-38 Combat Masterpiece. It shipped in 1953. Just a little bit of muzzle wear. In 1957 this model became the Model 15. I paid $750 for it a few years ago.






Here are two more books about Smith and Wesson that I refer to all the time. The information I posted regarding Registered Magnums came out of the little blue book.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Your SCSW was published in 2016. Seven years ago. Prices are always fluid. The SCSW is the best guide there is to a general history of S&W, model numbers and dashes, and generally all things Smith and Wesson. It is not an accurate representation of current prices. When I am searching through my copy for information about S&W, I never look at the suggested prices. If you want to know current prices go to Gun Broker and look up the price stuff sold for, not the prices being asked.

Regarding the Model 15; this is a K-38 Combat Masterpiece. It shipped in 1953. Just a little bit of muzzle wear. In 1957 this model became the Model 15. I paid $750 for it a few years ago.

View attachment 1143326




Here are two more books about Smith and Wesson that I refer to all the time. The information I posted regarding Registered Magnums came out of the little blue book.

View attachment 1143327

View attachment 1143328

What a Great Read!!! do they make a Colt Bible Book too?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Yes.

The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson by Supica and Nahas was the first. My 1st edition was published in 1991.

Later, a different publisher brought out a Standard Catalog of Colt Firearms, a Standard Catalog of Browning Firearms, a Standard Catalog of Remington Firearms, and a Standard Catalog of Winchester Firearms.

I have them all, but none of them is as good or thorough as the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson.