My 2 new FAXON 5.56 AR-15 barrels are (too) overgassed ... sigh

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The treatment causes the surface to turn black . If the Black is removed the metal is still Nitride treated.
Really?! Very interesting. How deeply does the nitride-effect penetrate?

EDIT:

I did some homework. :) Apparently, it is as I thought ... that the nitriding process produces a surface akin to case hardening ... so, presumably, the abrasive polishing that Mist Wolf and I were referencing (that frosted SVT-40 chamber) could remove it. From what GunnyUSMC says, I was wrong in thinking that the entire nitride layer was black.

RE: Case Hardening, here is a pic that took several years ago of a de-mil M14 receiver which clearly shows the case hardened layer.

2v2u13H9rxAW38L.jpg
 
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Really?! Very interesting. How deeply does the nitride-effect penetrate?
I think it’s around 1/16”, maybe less.
I had a 20” Nitride barrel cut down to 16” at my buddy’s shop. He first skimmed the surface off the area where he was going to cut. When the cutter contacted the metal, small chips started to fly. I asked the reason for skimming the surface first. He said that the Nitride surface was so hard that it would chip and leave a rough edge if he just started cutting.
 
Need to do your homework. Nitride is a metal treatment that harden the surface it’s not a coating . The treatment causes the surface to turn black . If the Black is removed the metal is still Nitride treated. It’s not like bluing that only covers the surface.
You are correct that nitride is not a coating like paint, nor is it a plating like hard chrome, or a conversion coat like Anodizing or bluing. But polishing a nitrided surface removes nitride. If you polish the chamber of a nitrided barrel, nitride will be removed and Faxon will likely not take the barrel back for defects.
 
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You are correct that nitride is not a coating, like paint, nor is it a plating like hard chrome, our a conversion coat like Anodizing or bluing. But polishing a nitrided surface removes nitride. If you polish the chamber of a nitrided barrel, nitride will be removed and Faxon will likely not take the barrel back for defects.
They probably wouldn't but, it's a cheaply priced barrel though money is money no doubt. I was surprised how easily my Flitz job smoothed out the chamber. Had I had the issues GBExpat experienced, I'd likely return the barrels too.
 
A Faxon email timestamped this morning at 9:01am:

Hi "GBExpat",

We got your barrels and we decided to go ahead and polish up the chambers. We double checked the headspace but aside from the roughness in the chambers the barrels were unremarkable (in a good way!) They will ship back out in no more than two business days.

Thanks,

Martin
Faxon Firearms


====================

To which I just responded (and in which repeated the question from my 18Jul18 email):

Thank you for the update, Martin!

How do barrels out of different Lots (according to Pat) manage to be final-QC-inspected, bagged and shipped with such chambers?

"GBExpat"


====================

I am looking forward to getting those barrels back and reassembling the two ARs ... especially the little carbine as I think that I am going to like that one a lot. :)
 
Faxon communicated (instant msg) to me the other they had, for lack of a better term, "fired" the shop who performs their nitriding process and went elsewhere. They also asked if I was having any issues with the barrel et al and would do whatever it took to make it right. I liked that. I stated in detail my remedy and thanked them. Haven't heard back but half-expected "NO WARRANTY / YOU"RE FIRED!!!"
 
Well, I am hoping that they have it figured out, because last night, my wife surprised me by ordering a Faxon 20" SOCOM profile barrel for my latest build. I have been watching this thread while I debated the brand I would go with, and have found this informative, to know what to watch for. It sounds like, even if I have a problem, it will be taken care of with no stress on my part. Thanks for all of the info, all. :thumbup:
 
From Faxon, timestamped 7:59am:
It is usually a product of the nitriding process leaving the interior surface a bit rough, but otherwise perfectly within specification. QC unfortunately does not have enough time to test fire each barrel and it doesn't always stand out when looking through with a bore scope, so they can slip through every once in a while. On the plus side, it means that both of your barrels now have hand polished chambers!

Thanks,
Martin
Faxon Firearms

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Thank you for the excellent & succinct explanation, Martin! :)

I use fiber optic extensions mounted on mini-maglites to do light-reflection inspections of areas of bores and chambers. After pulling the 16" barrel, I looked down into the chamber (again) with a bright light. I could see the traces of brass removed from cartridge cases but no obvious flaws. I inserted a fiber optic thru the muzzle to the chamber and was surprised that, in the bright white light reflection, I could discern no irregularities in the chamber surface ... it looked smooth as glass. (BTW, I opted to not clean the bores/chambers so any/all brass traces could be of assistance to the Faxon people inspecting/correcting the issues)

Years ago I discovered that the feel of (as well as sound produced by) a properly-sized phosphor-bronze brush passing thru/over a chamber/bore area could tell me a great deal about the surface conditions.

After I experienced the initial difficulties with these barrels, I cleaned the bores/chambers, with particular attention to the latter. I employed a brass brush this time and was expecting to feel flaws ... something ... in the chambers. But I felt no indications of anything odd in either chamber.

My take from all of this ...

Perhaps, if I had deployed the fiber-optic for a very careful chamber inspection when I first removed the barrels from the bags and inspected them, I may have seen ... something. Perhaps not. I will never know.

Quite frankly, I do feel better knowing that I did not install two barrels that sported easily seen/felt nitride boogers in their chambers. If I had, Bugs Bunny's comment on the situation might have been "What a maroon!". :)

I have learned that nitrided longgun barrels represent new territory that requires a different approach. Even with barrels from quality manufacturers like Faxon, no longer can one do what was considered to be a good inspection and removal of preservative grease/oil and oiling prior to putting it aside to await installation.

In future, I will hesitate to buy another nitride longgun barrel unless the mfr can guarantee me no such issues with the product. I have no interest in having to assemble the rifle and fire it to see if there are such "invisible" nitride issues ... and then have to dis-assemble the rifle to polish the chamber ... then re-assemble the rifle to fire it again to determine if my polishing efforts completely corrected the issue.

Perhaps my best approach would be to plan on polishing ALL new nitride chambers, whether or not there are any visible flaws? <sigh & smile>

Anyway ...

Thanks for your kind help with this, Martin.

I look forward to enjoying thousands of rounds thru my two new Faxon Gunner barrels with their hand-polished chambers. :)

"GBExpat"
 
Thanks, GunnyUSMC. That is reassuring.

Perhaps Faxon had a (or more than one) sub-standard batch as imashooter's Instant Message from them suggests ... and I just happened to order my two at the wrong time.

That said, going forward I will probably always view new nitrided longgun barrels thru a jaundiced eye.
 
If you have the spare cash burning a hole in your pocket... buy a Lyman Borescope.
That danged thing is worth every penny.
I've considered that and possibly would if there was a decent black friday / other sale. I have a few of those 7mm? (2 MP but not bad) 20.00 endoscopes that work surprisingly well with a smartphone when going into spark plug holes, etc. Friend of mine uses a few in his plumbing business. In most cases I prefer the "limp noodle cord" over the more rigid one. The limp models can be "splinted" for rigidity if needed.
 
Here's the quote from "Pat" at Faxon: " It is a fairly recent issue for us and caused us to change who we go to for the nitriding process. If you feel as if you are having functionality issues because of it just let us know and we''ll be happy to get the issue resolved for you!" Hopefully he's cool with this post.
 
A Faxon email timestamped 1:34pm:


I'm glad I was able to help, "GBExpat"!

Your conclusions are spot on, and I very much appreciate you leaving the brass in the chamber. That made diagnosing the issue much easier. Nitride can be tricky, but the benefits of it often outweigh the hazards. One of the major factors is that "Nitride" is such a broad term and covers multiple finishes and even the same finish but using slightly different salts or techniques. The broad spectrum of nitride finishes makes it hard to find the "right" way to finish a barrel, and what issues may arise. We actually changed our nitriding service recently due to (among other things) occasionally rough chambers. The new nitride provider has been much more consistent and we are very happy with the results.

I hope the barrels serve you well and if there ever is anything else we can do for you, please don't hesitate to reach out!

Thanks,
Martin
Faxon Firearms
 
My barrels have been returned to me ...

=====

Hello, Martin. I am composing this at ~2pm on Sunday and 15 minutes ago I received the barrels. Thank you!

O'course, the box has been sitting by the front door for over 2 days, unnoticed (tracking states that it was placed on the front porch at 10:27am on Friday), because I have not used the front door in the past few days and no one at Faxon emailed me about the shipment. <sigh & smile>

Stuff Happens.

Friday 10:27am ... that is about 45 minutes after returning from my weekly, early-morning grocery shopping run ... and a couple of hours before the rains resumed. The good news is that I live in the country up a ridge and thru the trees from the road (the porch is not visible from the road) and the rain squalls of the past couple of days didn't manage to get to the box .... although on Friday afternoon one did manage to fell a pretty good-size oak across the ridge trail ~75yds south of the house.

I should have time later this week to re-assemble my new ARs and testfire them. Looking forward to it!

Thank you!

"GBExpat"
 
BTW.... to be clearer on the chamber honing comment... DO NOT polish chambers bright and shiny smooth.
The goal is to remove some of the roughness...that is why I suggest 0000 steelwool it just smoothes the irregular surface, it can't remove material unless some one goes bat-shot crazy with it. ( Again it won't scratch glass with "normal" use. ( And it makes a heck of a fire starter. )

Glass smooth chamber ... is bad. To smooth and your bolt takes a lot of back thrust... since the cartridge brass can't readily grip the walls of the chamber. The brass cases in this thread clearly showed a very rough chamber... so honing the chamber walls would have been something I would have done.
I have done the 0000 steelwool trick on numerous AR's in 6.5CM, .308, and a 9x19 chambers, oddly no .223 / 5.56 chambers yet.
 
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Why all my ARs have either a stainless or chrome plated bore.


Stainless or chrome are not immune to barrel defects. I have used chrome lined, nitrided 4150 CMV, 416 and 410 stainless steel. All work well and have their place.

Most of the barrels I have bought in the last 2 years are nitrided.
 
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