My Airgun Ramblings

[Kruff]

My first air rifle was the Winchester model 427 22 caliber break barrel spring piston rated at 660 fps. I bought this gun in 1969 when I was a teenager for $40.00, a lot of money back then. I still have it but rarely shoot it these days.

Been shooting powder burners for years but recently bought 2 air guns to play with in the back yard. After reading up on what’s available these days I decided on the Webley Tempest in 22 caliber and the Benjamin Trail NP2 in 22 caliber. I wanted something that was fairly quiet as not to disturb the neighbors and both of these guns meet that need.

My first Webley I bought from Amazon. I noticed right away that the pellet took a long time to hit the target so I put a few over my Chrony and was only getting 240 fps with 11.9 gr pellets. WTH
I pulled out the breech seal and it was cracked all the way down one side. I returned it for a refund.

I bought another from Pyramyd Air and a few extra breech seals just in case. This one also had a bad breech seal. I decided to keep this one and just fix it myself with the extra seals I bought. This was a bit more involved than I thought it would be.

The replacement seals were too big in diameter and too thin. I had to shave down the diameter and install a small flat washer behind the seal. This worked fine and now all is well.

The Tempest is pretty accurate for a springer but you must do your part. Trigger control is a must with this gun. Cocking is a bit hard but not too bad. Sights work well in good light but in dim light the front sight is difficult to see. The rear sight is hard to zero since there are no reference marks.

For being a new gun the velocity spreads were low. Recorded velocity for RWS Hobby 11.9 gr pellet was 405, 405, 402, 397, 400
Beeman Silver Bear 12.6 gr hp went 396, 400, 390, 396, 397
Crosman Premier Ultra Mag 14.3 gr went 356, 345, 354, 357, 348
The Beeman Silver bear gave the best accuracy.

The Crosman Trail NP2 22 caliber I also bought from Pyramyd Air.
This gun is powerful in air gun terms. This is a heavy gun weighing in at over 9 lbs with scope. The nitro piston is smooth to cock but a bit violent when fired but still smoother than a springer with comparable power. The trigger, while not great, is useable.

This gun is not a toy and will shoot through ¾” of pine like it’s not even there. Metal cans do not stand a chance and will be shredded in no time.

At 20 yards the gun averaged about 1” 5 shot groups with Crosman Premiers. The improvised rest I used was not real stable so I’m sure the gun can do better.
Again, for being a new gun the velocity spreads were low.

Beeman Silver Bear HP 12.6 gr went 885, 886, 868, 862, 879
Average, 876 fps for 21 fpe.

Crosman Premier HP 14.3 gr went 807, 831, 806, 811, 809
Average, 812 fps for 20.9 fpe

Ruger Superpoint 17 gr went 751, 760, 766, 738, 687
Average, 740 fps for 20.6 fpe

The Crosman Premier pellets gave the best accuracy with the Beeman a close 2nd.
The Ruger Superpoints did not group well in the gun.

Overall, I am very happy with both of these guns. Thinking about something in 25 caliber next. I like the BSA but it’s a bit pricey.

 

[jmorris]

The RWS springers have very nice triggers but are also violent as far as air rifles go, just the nature of spring power. The last few I have picked up have been PCP rifles. They really go a long way in bridging the gap between air rifles I had as a kid and powder burners.

 

[Chevota]

I'm surprised the seals on the Tempest were broken, but I only have older ones made in England and the seals are basically indestructible. If they're the same design they'd still work broken, depending on the break. I don't suppose you have pix of the broken seal? I'm curious to see how and if they're the same design. The oem seal has the same problem most springers have which is during install the cocking slot cuts the seal shaving a chunk off which causes a leak. Your NP2 no doubt has the same damage. The fix if to smooth the slot then install a new seal.
A big bennie for the Tempest is a trigger shoe, that and a little sear shaving if you're up to it. The Tempest also has issues with friction at the cocking linkage. The problems should be obvious when looking at it, but #1 is the cocking shoe scraping the inside of the compression tube. Then the little block the linkage has to ride over which will wear and disfigure the linkage arm. At least with my guns those are issues.
That's really good power you have with it btw. My 177 versions are ~3 to 3.4 ftlbs. I never bothered to crony my one in 22 because I assumed it would be less powerful.
Most springers, including your two, can bennie from reducing the dead air space at the center of the seal. It's like a dished piston in an engine and only hurts power. The seal does need to extend a little bit past the metal at the center to act as a bump stop because you do not want metal to metal impact, but on most guns the seal sticks out too far.
If you're into 177 at all you might consider the Beeman P17. It's a cheapie at ~$35 but for the $ it's the best deal in air pistols. My Tempest was my favorite pistol until the P17. Well, I like and respect the Tempest more but I shoot the P17 more often. It's like comparing a Zippo to a Bic, the Zippo is nicer but the Bic wins since it works and is cheap and disposable. The P17 has no hold issues either. I have the best luck with the Tempest shooting with a very firm grip using both hands. The trigger shoe and sear work help, so does the Beeman "Combat" grips if you can find them. They're expensive but well worth it. There's some other work that be done to the Tempest but it's a pita for small returns.
The trigger on the NP2 can be improved with a lighter spring which is really easy to do. If you want to go a step further you can sharpen the sears which have rounded edges.

 

[Kruff]

JMorris
I looked at PCP's and like them and the larger calibers but I don't shoot birds or critters and my backyard range is limited to 90 ft. I would love to own a PCP but don't want to spend that much on the gun and support equipment for the limited use it would see.

Chevota
No pics of the broken seal but both were split down the side front to back. Why the replacements are different I don't know.
Thanks for all the good info.

 

[Chevota]

I should've paid more attention, you said breech seal, I thought main seal. So the main seal of a Tempest has a split like you described, but intentional and clean. So all my ramblings about damage and fixes were about main seals, not breech. So if you're up to it you could open both guns up and fix the seals and whatever other flaws. The stuff I mentioned is no doubt why your NP2 is a little low on power, so those mods could net you 10%+ more power and no doubt nicer shooting if corrected.
The breech seal on the English Tempest is black rubber and can develop classic cracking and splitting over time, but usually just shallow cracks around the exposed face. I've never heard of one splitting all the way. The breech seals on mine are still just fine with the oldest being >20yrs old. I can't say about yours since I assume it's not English made. I've been assuming the spare parts available are English but who knows. If so then I guess that explains the difference between the two. As long as the new one works I guess that's all that matters, but if you feel the need to open either gun to tinker, I've been there so feel free to ask. I have pictures too.

 

[Kruff]

Chevota,
Both seals had jagged splits front to back. Bad batch of rubber? Who knows.
The original seals seemed to be made from of a harder compound and had a shiny surface compared to the replacement.
I read all the reviews I could find and nobody mentioned anything bad breech seals on this gun. I also forgot to mention that the 1st gun had a plastic washer behind the rubber seal but the 2nd gun did not. Maybe the Turks need to improve their QC in this area.
The specs on P/A's site shows a velocity of 350 fps but they don't mention pellet weight. Since I am getting around 400 fps with 12.6 gr pellets I have no complaints.

I have worked on powder burners for years but not air guns. Not sure why you think the NP2 is low on velocity. I thought an average of 865 fps with a 12.6 gr pellet was pretty good. Could you be thinking of the Benjamin XL which has a higher muzzle velocity?
In regards to seals and other flaws, what should I look for?

 

[Chevota]

I assume Hatsan is who makes the Tempest now but whatever the case I'm sure quality is down with corners cut so nothing really surprises me as to what you might find. It's still a neat design and I have no doubt that whatever issues you have are easily fixed. Sounds like you got a good one either way since a breech seal is very minor. The need for a washer is a quality issue, but as long as the washers center hole is a match for the hole in the gun and seal, and it mates flush against the gun and doesn't have jagged edges to impede air flow then you should be good to go. Your power suggests it's fine but I like to keep air flow smooth and unrestricted, which is impossible in a Tempest but I do my best.
The NP2 is like all cheap guns and needs some work to correct flaws. The power isn't bad, but with a tune you can squeeze a little more power while at the same time making the gun smoother firing, more accurate and less likely to break the scope or rail. I'd assume they fixed the rail problem by now but even if they did I don't know how good of a fix it is so I'd still be leery. I'd prefer a dovetail rail which they do have but I don't know the part # or cost. NP2 parts prices are unpredictable, some are very cheap and some very expensive, which I assume is Chinese vs US made parts but who knows.
If you want to open the gun up and tinker I have a bunch of info I can send you. The only parts you really need is a new main seal ($2 from Crosman), some metal washers for the barrel since it's loose, and if you do the trigger a lighter spring. The latter two from a hardware store which you'll need to make fit. Then some labor sanding a few things, fresh lube and it should be good to go. They often have barrel damage too so that needs inspecting, and if damaged they can be improved but sometimes they're beyond repair. Shimming the scope is usually needed, and using heavier pellets are easier on the scope and rail so I'd try to use at least 14.3gr. The tuning work might even get a 14.3 pellet up to the same speed. The Silver Bear is imo a terrible and useless pellet anyway, aside from being too light its BC sucks and the hollow point doesn't work. The Crosman hollow points you have are good but its hollow point doesn't work either. I think JSB 14.3 or the round nose Crosman Premier would be best. I prefer the JSB but each gun is different so I'd try both. The BC of those two is 2-3x better than the Silver Bear. If you want hollow points I'd get Crow Mag or Barracuda Hunter Extreme, but they're a bit heavy for your gun so no guarantees they'll work as designed but they're really your only option. So the info is worth a look even if it's just to familiarize yourself with these guns. It's way too much to post so if interested write me at chevota at hotmail and I'll send it, just remind me of who you are.

 

[Kruff]

I really like the Tempest. Small, good power, quiet, and accurate if you do your part. The ID of the washer I installed was an exact match for the seal but a bit too large in OD.
I chucked in my Dremel and ran it over a file until it matched the seal OD then sandpapered to make smooth.

I am a novice in the air gun world so I bought several types of pellets to see what worked best. Of the few kinds that I tried the Silver Bear grouped the best. I wanted a lighter pellet for my pistol because I loose too much velocity with the heavier ones. I use them in my rifle.

Thanks for the information offer, I will contact you at your Hotmail address.

 

[PapaG]

I got a Winchester 435 in 1970, about 50 bucks. Shot it all winter, almost nightly, and for several years after that. Killed more than a few rabbits. Cut cards, hit toothpicks, lots of fun. Didn't have a chrono but thought it was an honest 800 or better fps gun.
A few years ago, I dug it out to shoot a rabbit out of the garden. Five shots and a club later, I was rid of the rabbit. Chrono'd out at 425fps. Wrote to one of the repair facilities for a quote, shipping, 85 to look at it, about 80 for rebuild, shipping.
Bought a RWS Diana and never looked back.
Also picked up, last year, a Nitro Venom 22, and this summer a Trail .25. They join my original Benjamin .22 from my Jr. High days ('57-'58), my Crosman .22 and my Blue Streak .20. All are fun. Wish I had more time to shoot them.
Grandkids are going to have a windfall when I croak.
Might try to rebuild the Winchester one day.

 

[Kruff]

PapaG,
I can remember looking at the model 435 but being the top rifle offered at the time by Winchester it was too expensive. I wanted 22 caliber anyway.

I still have the original owners manual which lists 6 models. The manual rates the model 435 at 693 fps in 177 caliber and is the heaviest at 6.5 lbs. My model 427 weighs in at 6 lbs. according to the manual.

 

[PapaG]

Thanks, Kruff, for the manual info. I just found mine and noticed that, back then, the recommended putting a drop or two of oil in the chamber. I only did that once and stopped when I realized it was "dieseling".

 

[Chevota]

Probably more like 600fps with a standard weight pellet. The oil is necessary btw. It no doubt has a leather main seal as well so the oil is super important. It keeps the leather pliable and wet to make a good seal. If allowed to dry then it leaks, which is probably part of why you got 425fps. If it shrinks then it leaks even more, and if it breaks apart then it may ruin the gun. Basically a leaky seal causes the piston to pound the gun as if it were a hammer, the more it leaks the worse the pounding. If the seals condition is unknown then it's hard to say how much oil it needs, but if it were my gun I'd take apart to verify the condition of the leather, soak the seal, and tune the whole gun while it's apart. Better yet I would be replacing the seal with a modern synthetic if available, and I'd bet they are. If you don't want to take it apart then I'd probably put ~10 drops of synthetic motor oil in it to and let it soak overnight to be sure it's saturated. It's up to you, just saying that's what I'd do. Yes it will diesel but not much you can do about that, nor is it the end of the world. I can't say about yours but a typical generic gun today can probably diesel all day and it won't hurt it. I suppose to minimize harsh dieseling you could add 1-2 drops and let it soak overnight, shoot ~10 shots, and repeat for a week. Lots of people use silicone oil instead which burns less than motor oil, but it's not good for the gun and I have no idea if it'll work for leather. When I oil the chamber, which I do rather often at ~500 shots or ~6 months, I usually use two drops of straight 30wt Royal Purple. After oiling I cycle the piston a few times to work it around, then shoot heavy pellets until it stops dieseling. On my guns a heavy pellet will make for a less violent diesel, but more of them. So it may diesel for three shots instead of two but each of the three are softer. All my guns have modern synthetic seals which don't need as much oil, some believe they never need oil. A syn seal will work better in every way and are typically easier on the gun, and scope if used. You don't have to use syn oil but it's a better lube and doesn't burn as easily. Since everyone (imo) should put at least one qt of syn in their car then they should have a few drops to spare. Just don't use crap like WD40 or any oil that burns like that because the better it burns the more violent the dieseling, and the more violent it is the more likely it will harm something. So basically just motor oil to be safe. WD burns pretty violently in a springer btw. People use it on purpose to supercharge the gun, which is fun but just in case I'd only do it to a disposable gun.

 

[Kruff]

Chevota,
You are a wealth of knowledge. I look forward to reading your future posts.

 

[reddog13]

Chevota,
I concur with member Kruff who also has vast knowledge in air gunning world. Thank "yawl". I have learned from both of you. I always stop and read your posts because they contain reliable information that has helped a beginning air gunners like myself.

 

[Kruff]

It's always a pleasure to share info and opinions to help out a fellow shooter. Coming soon; The Benjamin Trail NP pistol review.

 

[jcwit]

I'm in the process of completely rebuilding an Anschutz 250 Match Target recoilless rifle. Going to have the weak spot at the hole that the rear pin goes into strengthened by laser welding and am waiting for seals for the buffer & piston to arrive from England.

Anyone interested in how this goes?

 

[bikerdoc]

Indeed.
That would be interesting.
put up a how to with pics and I'll sticky it !

 

[jcwit]

Dang, I have no idea how to do that, however here is a U-Tube for the breakdown and of course the assemble in just the opposite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwE3MxEf9d0

The title of the video is the company who supplied the parts and I must say a very helpful, friendly, and sharp outfit, to say the least.

As far as the welding outfit, it is Microtech Welding Corp. they speclize in medical equipment and repairing molds. High quality work also, one just need to wait till they work it in, altho they told me a couple of weeks is sufficient.

 

[jcwit]

Well the rebuild is completely done. Found all the parts from Custom Gun Parts In Prenton, England. Very nice folks, fair pricing, and fast shipping, and very helpful when I had a question. Anyhow it's all back together and in fine shooting shape, very accurate too I might add.

This was my first airgun teardown and complete rebuild, overall it went very smoothly and with no left over parts. LOL