Pellet rifle Ammo questions

[SIGfiend]

I've got a couple of air guns and the thing I noticed is, with German pellets like RWS and Beeman, they fit in the breech very tightly. American ones like Crosman fit very loosely.

Are the loose Crosman ones bad for the spring piston sealing? Differences in performance?

 

[JohnKSa]

For a spring piston airgun, you want your pellets to be in the midrange for the caliber in terms of weight and a snug fit in the bore. Too tight or too loose is not good for the gun. Same with too light or too heavy.

 

[P95Carry]

My heavyweight Beeman Silverjets have proved all but ideal. Firm when in place and - seemingly good and consistent ballistics.

(Ask the occasional rodent or two!?)

 

[JohnKSa]

I guess I didn't really address your question.

As far as I know there is no trend for European pellets to be different sizes than American brands. It's just coincidence that you happened to try several brands that weren't American and happened to be tight in the bore.

 

[redneck]

I could be completely wrong on this, but I've experienced the same thing and think the cheaper pellets from companies like crosman and daisy are designed for their pneumatic guns that shoot bb's and pellets. They're usually lower priced guns,and from what I've seen aren't built overly solid. If you try and ram something too tight into the breech you can pop the barrel off (least I was able to do that once). I think the looser fit is just to make loading easier.

They're not real cheap (think last I paid was 4.99 for a tin of 250), but I've had great results with gamo pellets out of my gamo 220. They're a nice tight fit and seem to be a good weight for the gun. Very accurate. They also seem to be made with a little harder lead and offer a good mix of penetration and expansion.

 

[Corolla]

http://www.beeman.com/pellacc.htm

Beeman Pellet Seater
Not to easy to find, if you have someone in you're area that sells beeman get one if you're looking for precision shoots. Use round end to debur and spread skirt and pointed end to insert into barrel try to note how far you have inserted the pellet into the chamber my beeman and gamo both like it when the pellet just touches the rifling.

 

[JohnKSa]

It sounds odd, but the true Crosman Premier pellets are considered to be some of the best domed pellets in the world. I've had remarkably good luck with even Crosman's economy pellets.

The tight/loose thing varies by brand, caliber, and particular type of pellet. In .20 caliber, for example, the Crosman Premiers tend to be larger than many other pellet types.

If you look around and experiment, it's almost certain that you can find something in the proper weight range that fits and shoots well in your particular airgun. And, surprisingly enough, it's not always the most expensive pellets that shoot the best.

 

[Sunray]

"...Differences in performance..." Yep. There are match grade pellets. Mind you, you need a match grade air rifle for it to matter. Air rifle shooting is an Olympic level sport.

 

[SIGfiend]

I've got an RWS 48. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe it is considered a match level gun[?]. Certainly not a brand or model to be laughed at.

The Beeman and RWS ammo I've shot has been tight in the barrel and more accurate at the range than the Crosman ammo. It is .22 so I don't thing 'redneck's' reason applies here since there are no bb guns chambered in that caliber for these cheap American guns like Daisy and most of the Crosman line.

I just wonder if the looser fit is potentially damaging. Perhaps, improper sealing on each shot? Could it hurt the gun over time, or affect accuracy, etc.?

 

[JohnKSa]

Too loose or too light is hard on the gun because it doesn't present enough back pressure to the piston allowing it to slam into the forward part of the chamber without slowing down.

Too tight or too heavy is hard on the gun because it presents too much back pressure on the spring and can cause excessive vibration, dieseling and may eventually cause spring damage.

Pick a pellet in the midrange for weight in that caliber and that fits the bore snugly.

If you can't chamber it flush without hurting your finger it's too tight. You want to feel the rifling beginning to engrave on the pellet, but it shouldn't be a chore to get it chambered.

 

[SIGfiend]

Thanks John, should I abstain from the fairly loose Crosman ammo and just throw it away or give it away?

Also, do there exist pellets made of other metals besides lead? I'm tired of touching exposed lead since it is harmful and it also sucks because it gets smeared on the gun when you reposition your loading hand on the gun to fire.

 

[P95Carry]

Not wishing to prempt a reply from John but - IMO lead is only possible suitable material.

1) - it is soft (enough) to permit for skirt giving good obturation in bore and thus picking up rifling engraving - without too much frictional loss.

2) - it has a density that allows for enough weight in a small package.

3) (I guess) - it is also easy to mould, swage or cast. Reasonably cheap too.

 

[JohnKSa]

SigFiend,

Give or throw ammo away! Heaven forbid! Either trade it, sell it, or buy a gun to fit it.

P95 is dead right, BTW. Lead's the way to go. Just keep your fingers away from your face while handling lead and wash your hands after you're done shooting or handling your airguns and it will never be a problem. It's really much less of an issue than you think. You get way more lead from shooting and cleaning firearms than you ever could from handling pellets. For one thing, you inhale lead anytime you shoot a firearm and that never happens when you shoot an airgun.

 

[SIGfiend]

I found some lead free pellets. The question is are these safe to use in high cost guns like the ones I have?

Someone brought up that the ammo should shape into the rifling pattern without damaging the rifling. Will there be any concerns of that with these?

http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/pellet.pl?pellet_id=242

http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/pellet.pl?pellet_id=102

 

[P95Carry]

SIG - I have tried these (sabots) and frankly - they don't cut it for me. Principle is fine but accuracy never struck me as anything stellar at all.

They are harmless IMO to rifling - the sabot is just a hard plastic and probably engraves very easily and effectively - but once the projectile proper is airborne, I think things start to go astray.

Thise ''Tiger'' lead free - no idea what material they are using - can't comment.

 

[JohnKSa]

Agree with Chris,

I've never tried any of the various lead-free pellets. All the advice I've seen from airgun experts and airgunsmiths is negative. Some of the lighter plastic based pellets can be hard on a spring piston rifle because they don't present enough back pressure on the piston. I've also heard a few people complain about plastic fouling from these pellets.

 

[SIGfiend]

Yikes! Okay so it is a no on the plastic-cased sabot ones...how about the metal (but non-lead) pellets?

 

[P95Carry]

Non-leads - no idea at all - sorry!

As John said tho - could be if resistance is too little then piston gonna slam into end of chamber - maybe, too hard.

I really would stick to good ol' lead - just me. They work and frankly - any toxic side issues are less than important for me.

 

[JohnKSa]

As long as the weight of the pellet is reasonable and it will chamber without undue effort, I would think you're not going to hurt the gun.

If you want to do an experiment, here is what I would do. Carefully clean the barrel. Be EXTRA special careful as airguns have much more delicate rifling than firearms do and are sometimes made of softer metal. No metal brushes of any kind, ONLY patches and no firearm solvents (some solvents can be bad for seals). Something like Goo-Gone makes a good airgun bore solvent. I can't stress too much that you should be VERY careful with the rifling.

Take note of the condition of the bore, in terms of fouling.

Now test your lead free (or coated) pellets for accuracy. If you find that one type is adequately accurate then shoot 100 shots and repeat the barrel cleaning. If the fouling seems normal then you're probably ok to use those pellets with no danger of excess fouling.

You may still have to worry about extra bore wear, but I'm betting that if the pellet seats with a normal amount of force, it's not going to wear the barrel much more than lead (which is to say hardly any wear at all.)

You could also post some questions at the forum at the following site. There's a good bit of airgun experience there and some of them may have tried the pellets already. www.straightshooters.com

 

[SIGfiend]

Thanks guys.

What's the reason behind the top quality manufacturers reccomending the flat head pellets for best performance?

Wouldn't they be underperformers compared to the sharp needle point and dome shaped pellets since they are more aerodynamic?

 

[redneck]

Depends on what you want to do with them. They seem to be more accurate, its just a wadcutter shaped pellet. At least its easier to find "match grade" wadcutters than pointed, hollow point, or some of the other ones. I don't know how big of an accuracy difference they make though.
The real difference I've found in pellet performance is hunting/pest control. For that I prefer the domed or flat pellets. The pointed ones give more penetration but don't do much damage on the way through. A wadcutter on the other hand, will turn an english sparrow into a cloud of feathers coming out of a good springer. They have a lot more "smack" to them (which still is nothing spectacular, unless your shooting tiny stuff like sparrows)

 

[JohnKSa]

Flat point pellets tend to be the most accurate and also offer good performance on small critters.

Domed pellets tend to be an excellent mix of accuracy and long-range performance. They penetrate just about as well as a pointed pellet on critters.

Pointed pellets are decent in terms of aerodynamics, but tend to be less accurate in most guns than domes or flat points.

All pellets are pretty poor in terms of aerodynamics. They're made the way they are to seal properly to the bore (skirt expands and grips the rifling) and to keep the weight down.

As a very general rule of thumb, a very aerodynamic pellet is about 10 times less aerodynamic than a very UN-aerodynamic bullet.

 

[SIGfiend]

I still don't understand though, how an unaerodynamic pellet can be more aerodynamic than the laws themselves?

Wouldn't the domed and needle ended ones have higher velocities and flight stability than the flat ones?

 

[redneck]

Velocity is determined inside the barrel, by the force driving the pellet and how much it weighs. Pointed and domed pellets might retain velocity better, but that only means they have a little bit flatter trajectory. When your dealing with air rifle velocities, its not a huge difference. They do perform better at longer ranges on game, because they retain more energy. The pointed or domed head also aids penetration downrange since you have less energy.
Retained energy is a seperate issue, or at least a very small factor when it comes to accuracy though.
As far as being stable in flight, the biggest thing there is being stable when they exit the barrel.If it doesn't start out stable it doesnt' matter how aerodynamic it is.
I'm no expert on it, but I think that the flat nosed pellets have more bearing surface against the barrel, and are little more balanced. They have less mass in front of the ring around the head that touches the rifling. So they're going to have a tendency to get more consistent spin, and leave the barrel more cleanly.
On a pointed or domed pellet, you have most of your bearing surface at the rear and most of your mass at the front. I think this would have a negative affect on getting consistent spin and leaving the crown cleanly.

 

[JohnKSa]

Flight stability is better with a shorter projectile. Aerodynamics and flight stability are actually generally competing factors. Given that accuracy airgunning is a short range sport--often enjoyed indoors where wind is not a factor, flight stability is far more important than aerodynamics.