My article, The guns of Red Dawn 30 years later

[armoredman]

I don't think the Russians thought their campaign in Afghanistan was very successful.

Watch The Ninth Company for the Russian film makers look at Afghanistan, after the Sov empire went into hibernation.

 

[MtnCreek]

A guerrilla campaign behind enemy line could be affective at disrupting supplies to the front and robbing resourced that could otherwise be used at the front lines.

I remember thinking it was cool when the one kid was sawing off the shotgun. As a little kid I had stupid fantasies about doing the same to my dad's 1100 and killin me some commies.

 

[On An Island]

the famous Spartans - probably the best fighting force of it's time - were famously lightly armored and went to war almost naked with little armor protection and a small cheap helmet.

The Spartans typically employed a helmet, cuirass and greaves, shield, short sword or kopis and a spear.

The original Red Dawn worked on several levels. It was at the same time a bit of a campy shoot-em-up, a retelling of the underdog heroes vs the massed villains, a political commentary revolving around the 2nd Ammendment, and also an America vs the Commies tale. It didn't come through other than as the first and last for me at the time. It was only when I got older that I could put in the other contexts. But even then, it had actors in it that I liked and told a story I could enjoy. I haven't seen the remake so I can't comment on it - yet.

 

[HOOfan_1]

The Spartans typically employed a helmet, cuirass and greaves, shield, short sword or kopis and a spear.
.

I think 300 is fresh in some people's minds.

A lot of greek pottery from the time shows them in just a loin cloth, with a helmet and shield also. To the greeks though, the muscular male body was viewed as art itself, kind of the way we think of the female body now. So the ancient pottery may have been more artistic license than portrayal of actual panoply.

More than likely the hoplites, Spartans included wore more than the movie 300 depicted.

 

[JRH6856]

Dr Zhivago?

Winner, winner!

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Great Article, thanks for link!

I was never a fan of the movie Red Dawn. I grew up in the 80's and even though I was not yet a gun enthusiast, I instinctively knew that a Red Dawn would never, ever, ever happen. Why? Well I knew that the invading forces would quickly become overrun and vanquished by good ole US civilians (not necessarily the US military, but more the retired vets in the local neighborhood) who were/are already well armed and perhaps, better with a rifle than the conscripts in the invading armies.

So in essence, I knew Red Dawn was way more finction than reality. Anyhow, great article and I may go back and watch the movie now because I have a good reason to pay attention to it!

 

[armoredman]

A sudden, overnight invasion against a prepared and alert USA would go badly. An invasion where a patient enemy works behind the scenes for years, decades to undermine the strength of the country, weaken and dishearten the citizens, decimate the military from within, foment strife and division, and leave it a self loathing, partially disarmed and crippled shadow of its former self, (partially - the gang bangers will never voluntarily disarm), and voila! Now you have the ability to invade with much less danger. Sure the vets could fight, that is if they weren't blurred with involuntary meds and disarmed for being "domestic terrorists". The kids could fight, if they weren't fat and weak from spending all their time in front of the video game and computer porn. The kids in Red Dawn had presupposed skills that the children of today completely and deliberately lack.
While I doubt the actual scenario of the original or new Red Dawn could take place at this moment, it always could happen - our oceanic protection against invasion gets smaller every day as our enemies build.

 

[X-Rap]

The original was great and now 30 yrs later as plausible as it was then if not more.
We have a crippled under employed populace and weak corrupt leadership, Russia as aggressive as ever, an open border and radical fundamentalists burning up any semblance of order in the worlds energy center.
Oh and the Chinese just sitting there minding their own business right???
We're safe and sound as ever huh?

 

[Wanderling]

The Spartans typically employed a helmet, cuirass and greaves, shield, short sword or kopis and a spear.

The original Red Dawn worked on several levels. It was at the same time a bit of a campy shoot-em-up, a retelling of the underdog heroes vs the massed villains, a political commentary revolving around the 2nd Ammendment, and also an America vs the Commies tale. It didn't come through other than as the first and last for me at the time. It was only when I got older that I could put in the other contexts. But even then, it had actors in it that I liked and told a story I could enjoy. I haven't seen the remake so I can't comment on it - yet.

The Spartans were typically less armored than some other city-states, and often used a simple cheap conical helmet instead of the more elaborate ones that are so famous from the period art. The cuirass would not be as important for most as the main protection was provided by the large shield (hoplon) and when fighting in formation the wall of hoplons makes curiasses a secondary level of protection, especially for the 3d and deeper ranks of the phalanx. There was a pretty good marble relief showing a Spartan soldier and he almost looks like a poorly armed peasant in a medieval levy. I can't find a link to it at the moment.

300 was actually not a bad movie, given that it was in essence a cartoon At least they show the Greeks actually using spears and fighting in formation, which is more than I've come to expect from Hollywood.

 

[Wanderling]

Great Article, thanks for link!

I was never a fan of the movie Red Dawn. I grew up in the 80's and even though I was not yet a gun enthusiast, I instinctively knew that a Red Dawn would never, ever, ever happen. Why? Well I knew that the invading forces would quickly become overrun and vanquished by good ole US civilians (not necessarily the US military, but more the retired vets in the local neighborhood) who were/are already well armed and perhaps, better with a rifle than the conscripts in the invading armies.

So in essence, I knew Red Dawn was way more finction than reality. Anyhow, great article and I may go back and watch the movie now because I have a good reason to pay attention to it!

I wonder how many of the people who actually served in a real army share your sentiment... a "conscript with a rifle" is not the main fighting force of the XXI century. Heck, it wasn't even the main weapon of WWI. Most combat casualties in WWI were from artillery.

Nazis overran many countries, there were many uprisings, not a single one succeeded in driving them out of the country. A large modern fighting force that has high fighting spirit and is properly equipped will always prevail over a rifle armed group of citizens as long as the said force is not squeamish about killing people right and left. Depopulating the area is the most effective way of getting rid of guerrillas, and the armies were well equipped for this for a long time. It's the morals and ethics that keep them from waging a true total war, and in the case of an existential fight this goes out the window.

Put it this way: if the German civilians in WW2 were sufficiently motivated to fight the invading forces even after the German army collapsed (and they certainly had plenty of people with experience) and had enough small arms for every German (but no tanks, no artillery, no air force, no industrial base), would they be able to drive the Red Army and the Allies out ? Or would we today have a severely depopulated former German territories split between Russia, Poland, France and some other neighboring states ?

What keeps US from being overrun in any foreseeable future is the fact that we have the biggest Navy, Air Force, and Army backed up by nuclear weapons and high technological / industrial capability (although we did give up a lot of that industrial capability lately).

 

[Gun Master]

Freedom Fighters

What you said is mostly correct, but that is a different scenario from Red Dawn.
WWII had little, if anything, to do with the theme of the movie, which was set in the 4th quarter of the 20th century. Unlike WWII, which was fought in Europe and the Pacific, this was on American soil.

Thank God for Freedom Fighters, when ever and where ever, they happen to be! They used what they had available, and were not afraid to stand up and fight.

We may have the strongest military force, and thank God for them, but that doesn't mean they will always be used wisely. Agreed ?

God bless our military, and all who fight for freedom !

 

[RustyShackelford]

The Beast(1988).....

I'd add that another great film that really shows the USSR & how they functioned deep inside the "Stan" is The Beast.
It has American actors & they speak English. The "Beast" is a huge Russian army battle tank that reeks havoc & fear in the remote villages.
Sharp weapons experts & US Army/military tankers may pick up on the "USSR" guns being US armed forces weapons "tricked" out.

The Beast reminded me of the classic German WWII sub film; Das Boot.
It shows a side of war & combat few really see. If you get a chance, watch The Beast, www.imdb.com www.imfdb.org .

 

[Wanderling]

The problem with this comparison is that Das Boot was filmed by Germans about Germans, while any movie filmed by Americans about Russians or Russians about Americans is bound to be full of stupidly wrong stereotypes. I'd even expect Russians to be showing the US more accurately simply because the US culture is so much better known worldwide than the Russian in the US.

And then you have the sh#t touch of Hollywood on top of it all...

Take "Patriot" for example. You'd think an American movie with an Australian in the leading role and a bunch of Brits in supporting roles would get a thing or two right about the British actions in the Revolutionary war. Yet it's also full of stereotypes.

 

[stressed]

Hmm.

If it makes you feel better, I wasn't even born yet when this came out.

 

[HOOfan_1]

.

Take "Patriot" for example. You'd think an American movie with an Australian in the leading role

Mel Gibson is actually American. He was born in the US and lived in the US until the age of 12

Now Blackhawk Down was directed by a Brit, had a bunch of Brit and Australian Actors...great movie

Ridley Scott director-Brit (my favorite director)
Jason Isaacs, Orlando Bloom, Ewan McGregor, Ewen Bremner, Ioan Gruffudd, Hugh Dancy all Brits
Eric Bana-Aussie

 

[Wanderling]

You're right of course, I forgot about Gibson being born here.. Didn't his dad move because of some issues with Catholic Church in the US ?

My problem with Patriot was the whole 'evil Brits burning down a church full of people' business. The British army - at least by the standards of XVIII century - behaved much better than most, definitely better than Colonials, at least when it came to dealing with British subjects (as long as they weren't Irish and burning down a British (yes, for the King and Parliament they were British) church full of British civilians - even if some of them may have been separatist sympathizers - would get the Captain and his soldiers court martialed and hanged, and Corwallis would be in lots of trouble. Too much Hollywood, too little respect for history.

 

[Gun Master]

It was a movie! The writer has what's called "Dramatic License".
You liked it or didn't like it. I liked it.

Are you expressing love for the British Royalist, over the American Revolutionaries?

Are you judging Mel by his nationality? I like Americans & Aussies. They have a lot of common interests and get along well.

Also, I know Mel has made his mistakes, but haven't we all?

Since THR is not about critiquing films or actors, let's get back to the subject at hand, namely guns.

First,Mel did some great fast action handling of several firearms and other weapons of the period.

Lastly, could we discuss "The Guns of Red Dawn"?

 

[RustyShackelford]

The Beast.....

The Beast does have US actors but if you see it, you get a intense compelling look at what the Afganis may have thought about the Russians in the country. The Murahadeen hated the USSR.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I got to hold the AK that was used in the "Wolverine!" scene.